09-02-2005 04:38									#1
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Turn 1 is here.

Here is the start location. For discussion. I think we all got the save via-e-mail as well.

Attachment: babmap1.jpg
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	09-02-2005 04:45									#2
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Settling on the spot looks like a good idea, though it makes us miss gold from the ivory under us, it also provides some nice free defence. We should send our warriors and workers to see what is arround us, but this looks like a good spot for Babylon.

	09-02-2005 04:51									#3
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What we know..

Not a bad start at all. We have a cow, and ivory. I can't recall if everyone got ivory - but I don't think so. I alos can't recall if SoZ is in play. If yes - then very nice. Bowmen and ancient cavalry. Who needs iron?

We can build our capital right where we are - but I suggest we check out the territory first.

How about all workers move to the cows.

One worker goes 4 (west)

(btw - the directions are based on the keyboard numbers)

One worker moves 6 (east).

Then we see. What do you think.

	09-02-2005 04:53									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Gamecube64 Settling on the spot looks like a good idea, though it makes us miss gold from the ivory under us, it also provides some nice free defence. We should send our warriors and workers to see what is arround us, but this looks like a good spot for Babylon.

I thought you got the extra gold when a city was built - but not food. Where's jon - he knows all the answers.

	09-02-2005 04:54									#5
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I assume you mean warriors move west and east. Sounds good. I didn't get the save BTW, so I think it was just you who got it.

About extra gold, I have seen that, but I'm pretty sure other times I didn't get it for some reason

Last edited by Gamecube64 on 09-02-2005 at 05:00

	09-02-2005 04:56									#6
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btw - the cows tile is currently at 2-2-1 (Food, Shields, Gold) and will go to 3-2-2 when irrigated and roaded. Valuable tile.

	09-02-2005 04:58									#7
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Just sent it GameCube.

Wow - our first turn in the new demo game, and it is my Birthday.

	09-02-2005 05:45									#8
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Ok - two moves were no-bariners - I think. One worker moved to the cows. One warrior moved 4 (west). It is looking pretty good, and gives us much more to discuss.

(btw - we are obviously now committed to these moves)

Attachment: babmap2.jpg
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	09-02-2005 08:28									#9
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Here's some thoughts on city layouts after the warrior and worker move.

A sees us moving one worker back onto the hill for defensive purposes - and to allow the other city locations. The second would be two tiles to the NW, and the third on that nice spot to the west.

B sees us settling the capital where we are, with the second and third cities to the noth and west. I like the B2 site better than the regular B site to the west. Otherwise we end up with two cities next to each other.

C is not bad and D is just for discussion.

The other advantage of B is that it would allow us to use the cow tile prior to capital culture expansion.

A moves us off the ivory tile, as I am waiting for the word on the commerce and capital from jon.

We can also move the other warrior east (6) or south (2) and then make the decision.

Wish more folks were around and commenting on this.

	09-02-2005 08:29									#10
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Oops - the post.

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	09-02-2005 08:39									#11
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Ok - moved the second warrior east - and one settler 7 onto the hill. Most possible scenarios had a settler headed that way anyway. Here is the lay of the land with 2 settlers and 2 workers left on the original tile.

I am thinking more and more of settling where we are. The hills to the east would be a good site, as would just beyond the woods to the north. We could get a good first perimeter of cities down with access to good land.

The other possible sites for the capital would appear to be 7 or 2 of the origin spot (the Ivory tile).

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	09-02-2005 08:45									#12
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And in case you were wondering - rivers give a 25% defence bonus - hills 50%.

	09-02-2005 08:46									#13
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Pop it! Pop it! Pop it! Pop it! Pop it!

In more serious news, 2 of current spot
7 of current spot, meh, I like where we are better.

	09-02-2005 08:48									#14
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Ok - some options - The capital is obvious in these layouts.

W.

Attachment: babmap3w.jpg
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	09-02-2005 08:50									#15
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Option X. The capital could be settled this turn.

Attachment: babmap3x.jpg
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	09-02-2005 08:51									#16
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Then again if we pop it and barbarians come out 4 of the hut we are royally screwed...

	09-02-2005 08:53									#17
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And Y. The city site to the west could be moved 1 tile 1, and the one to the east onto the hill. The land to the south will dictate where the other cities go.

Attachment: babmap3y.jpg
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	09-02-2005 08:54									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Gamecube64 Then again if we pop it and barbarians come out 4 of the hut we are royally screwed...

We do not pop it with the warrior, and the capital will take 10 turns to expand.

	09-02-2005 08:56									#19
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Psst... it is not within the culture radius even after 10 turns.

	09-02-2005 09:00									#20
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Looks like W and X make the most sense. Do we want our city on the hill or plains. And waht city layout looks best.

With X - all the sites are pretty much visible now. And X gets at least two cities - the capital and the city to the north - settled a turn earlier.

Both plans work - I am open to input. I will play the turn later tonight if I am still up, or tomorro wbefore I go to work. Please provide feedback.

Muchos gracias.

	09-02-2005 09:00									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Gamecube64 Psst... it is not within the culture radius even after 10 turns.

Yup - you be right. So we wait until another warrior is out - and then pop it.

	09-02-2005 09:09									#22
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So Gamcube - i take it as a vote for x or something like that. Settle where we are - and work out the finer details later.

I'm sort of leaning that way too.

I suspect we do not have too much land to our south before the coast. Claiming our land to the north and east will be important. But I am liking the X plan. We can get three cities on rivers with good tiles to work with. And we can settle the capital now.

	09-02-2005 14:00									#23
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Some thoughts on this:

1. How many workers, warriors and settlers did we receive? (I suppose 3, 2, 3)
   
2. We =need= to check out whether settling on the Ivory will give us fewer bonuses from the Ivory tile than settling next to it.
   
3. We need to check whether the tile E of the Ivory is on the river (we can do this by clicking on it and checking whether it has a trade value). Same for the all the tiles at the outside of a river bend: the Cow tile (since this is 2-2-1 already I suppose it =is= on the river!), and the hill tile S of the Ivory.
   
4. The river borders the Ivory tile on all sides. Settling the capital on the Ivory therefore has the advantage of the river defense bonus, but the major drawback that all units coming out of the capital must stop their movement after 1 tile.
   
5. We need to check if (as was certainly the case in Civ2, and possible in Civ3) settling right next to a hut means a 0% chance of barbarians. If yes, we might want to settle NW or SW of the hut.
   
6. If we do not settle on the Ivory, one or two of the workers can begin working on the Ivory tile right away.
   
7. Did the other teams before us settle? Check the top-5-city screen. A (minor) advantage of waiting a turn before settling is that the capital will not show up in the top-5 for a while. OTOH, with Babylon we're going to produce quite some culture soon, meaning we'll enter the top-5 anyway.
   
8. We'll need to work only 'good' tiles with our initial (3?) cities. We have close by: 1 Cow, 3 bonus grass, 1 Ivory, 1 plains+river, 1 Forest+river. For the non-capital cities, the tiles should be no further than 1 tile away from the city (in order to be within our borders). City placement should allow working all the closest good tiles.
   
9. Five tiles are significantly better than the surrounding area. We should take this into account in city planning. Optimal city sizes in the beginning could be 2, 2 and 1. We should not get below that, since that would mean not working one of the good tiles. If we get above it, we should consider building a settler.
   
10. At least two of our initial cities should be on a river.
    
11. For tile optimization reasons mentioned above, it's more logical to settle eastwards rather than westwards (why did you move that settler, anyway?! it revealed nothing!). We need to build our cities around the core groups of good tiles.
    
12. From the minimap: on which side of the world are we? Where is it likely the other civs are?
    

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 09-02-2005 at 14:33

	09-02-2005 14:30									#24
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My opinion:

If the hills tile S of the Ivory is on the river - build our capital there, and go for plan Y.
IMHO, Y is a good plan, since it meets all the criteria I mentioned above: 2 cities on rivers, efficient roading possibility, (edit) the cities can work 3, 4 or even 5 of the good tiles each (/edit), we have the hills defense bonus, we get the full Ivory bonus, we can settle our capital on turn 2, and we may safely pop that hut.
We also have direct access to the gold and the sugar.

If that tile is not on the river, plan Y isn't too bad, either. We'd have to weigh the advantages mentioned above against the fact that our capital will not be on the river.

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 09-02-2005 at 18:58

	09-02-2005 14:37									#25
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This alternative plan ("plan V") also has a nice initial city-spacing. It only has one city on a river, but it =is= the capital.

We don't know the terrain in the NE, though.

Attachment: optionv.jpg
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	09-02-2005 17:39									#26
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BFm.

Thanks for the input and discussion.

Some answers:

1. yes 3-2-3
2. the ivory tile will produce 3 gold either way - with a city or without and roaded. It will rpoduce 4 either way when we are out of despotism.
3. the hill tile south of the river IS on the river. It produces 1 gold.
7. No one else settled
11. Moving the settler to the hill revealed one more row of tiles to the north - and as indicated - it was assumed that one city would go north.

	09-02-2005 17:45									#27
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Also - your points 4, 6, 8, and 9 are very compelling. Your logic about the tiles to use is right on.

Y it is. We need to pick a plan. And the Furry Monster has convinced me. If I don't play it now, the game won't get played for another 9 or 10 hours.

btw - did everyone get the save via e-mail direct from Paddy?

	09-02-2005 18:09									#28
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So - here is the final move. The second settler moved south to the hill and the third east with the warrior. The two workers are irrigating the ivory tile.

We are going with Plan y as so eloquently put forth by BFM.

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	09-02-2005 18:15									#29
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btw - the password for the save is 'walls' as suggested in another thread.

The next settler moves are straightforward. The settler should pop the hut via settlement - not the warrior.

The western warrior - and we should name some folks soon - moves south??

And - as it will be another turn before we can settle next to the hut and see if we get any techs, when Babylon is built next turn - do we commence research on anything - or do we wait and see?

	09-02-2005 18:54									#30
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Some more thoughts:

• All (or most of) the river-corner-tiles seem to be on the rivers! Great news.
  
• There seems to be more flat land in the areas N and S of the hut (otherwise, the warrior would have spotted hills or mountains).
  
• I did not receive the save through Paddy (edit: oh! It seems I =did= ! I had some mail problems...). I think he just sent it to you. Should we ask him to send it to multiple players, or should we get an account (maybe the gmail account) that distributes it to the team?
  
• We still need to check whether my point 5) above holds ("0% chance of barbs if you settle next to the hut")
  
• After founding the capital, found the city to the NW, then the city next to the hut. There is a chance (I'm not 100% sure about this though) that, since we won't have any settlers and are producing none at that moment, the possiblity exists we get a settler from the hut. It probably depends on the number of cities of the other civs at that time, too.
  
• We should start researching ASAP, that is, after Babylon has been founded. Four out of the five initial workable tiles are on a river -- we will get lots of trade from this!
  
• Founding Babylon will reveal lots of terrain -- let's wait and see before deciding on the moves of the warrior in the west. Continuing west might not be a bad idea, especially since this is bascially a computer-generated map, and the continents roughly run west-east most of the time.
  
• We'll probably need some gold (from Babylon) during turn 2 to pay our extra units. After the two other cities have been founded, we should be OK.
  
• Can you post a screenshot of the minimap?
  

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 10-02-2005 at 00:41