14-02-2005 18:09									#91
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Given that the United Kingdom had suffered attack from Germany's increasingly sophisticated rocket bombs, I'm not sure what people thought that the British Air Force should have done: dropped Valentine's Day cards perhaps?

What about things like:

Bomb Railwaytracks, Roads, Bridges, and the factories you mentioned
instead of carpet bombing the residential areas to inflict a firestorm.

	14-02-2005 18:16									#92
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quote: hasten the end.

The bombing of Dresden did not keep one German soldier from defending Berlin, nor degrade his fighting ability in the slightest. The only major military clash at that time was Berlin and its outskirts.

Dresden prevented/ended nothing in regards to that war.

And what does being the first city to accept Nazism have to do with anything. Can Germans use that as an excuse to bomb Leningrad? Civilian targets are civilian targets, no matter how much you hate their political beliefs.

	14-02-2005 18:19									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The best thing you could do for the victims of Dresden and other places like Coventry is fight for peace in your own time.

Absolutely- which is what Coventry Cathedral strives to do:

" Coventry was a city devastated in the war, typical of so many places in both our countries. And in the ruins of the burned-out Cathedral today, there is a large cross made from charred timbers that fell from the roof, and a smaller cross made from the original C14th nails found in the rubble.

Beside these, remembering also the devastation suffered here in the war, is a sign with words Jesus spoke from the cross 2000 years ago: "Father Forgive".

In Dresden, and in Berlin (in the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Gedachtnis-Kirche), and in Hiroshima and Volgograd (the former Stalingrad), there is a similar cross of nails from Coventry, with the same message "Father Forgive". Every Friday at noon, in all these places, is said the same prayer of reconciliation. "

http://www.burwellbansin.com/Visits_2001_Sermon.html

	14-02-2005 18:26									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The best thing you could do for the victims of Dresden and other places like Coventry is fight for peace in your own time.

That´s true

	14-02-2005 18:27									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST What about things like: Bomb Railwaytracks, Roads, Bridges, and the factories you mentioned instead of carpet bombing the residential areas to inflict a firestorm.

I believe you're seriously overestimating the ability of Allied bombers to 'precision bomb' areas.

Industrial targets aren't always neatly laid out for the opposing airforces to attack- workers' houses tend to be grouped in and around industrial zones.

Incendiary bombs cause fires- it's what they're intended to do. It's what they did in Coventry and London and Plymouth.

I'm not excusing the bombing raids, but given the times, I don't know what you expected the Allies to do, wait until they had developed incredibly accurate pilotless flying bombs? It takes time to train bomber crews, and time to manufacture aircraft.

It was also, after all a war against a state which had shown a willingness to eradicate whole villages for the assassination of one Nazi.

	14-02-2005 18:34									#96
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quote: I'm not excusing the bombing raids, but given the times, I don't know what you expected the Allies to do, wait until they had developed incredibly accurate pilotless flying bombs? It takes time to train bomber crews, and time to manufacture aircraft.

Come to the obvious conclusion, even back then, that this action would do nothing to achieve your stated goal.

	14-02-2005 18:47									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Come to the obvious conclusion, even back then, that this action would do nothing to achieve your stated goal.

Easy to say with the benefit of hindsight.


" After the horror of the Blitz in 1940 and 1941, London continued to suffer from air raids but not on the same scale. It wasn't until June 1944 that Londoners again suffered from daily indiscriminate bombing but this time it was the V1 (also called doodlebugs) and V2 rockets.

Throughout the 1930s German scientists had been working on flying bombs and rockets. By October 1942 they had successfully tested a rocket, 46 feet long and able to carry a one ton warhead. It could travel more than 200 miles at a speed of 3600 miles per hour. This was developed into the V2 rocket.

At the same time, the V1 flying bomb had also been developed. Although it was not as good as the V2, it was cheaper to produce.

The British Government knew about the development of these two weapons and tended to take a pessimistic view of the damage and carnage they could cause. To slow down production, raids were launched on German factories.

The British and Americans commenced Operation Overlord, the invasion of France, on 6th January 1944. Just six days later the first V1 flying bombs descended on London. Only one of the ten launched arrived in London killing six people in the East End. Within days V1s were being launched at the rate of 100 per day. Almost half were shot down by fighter pilots and guns but the remainder hit the capital.

As these rockets were launched in daytime, they caused large numbers of casualties because there were more people out and about.

Londoners became accustomed to hearing the sound of a rocket's engine and to breathing a sigh of relief when it went over or waiting for death if the engine cut out just overhead.

As the allies advanced in France, the Germans lost their launch sites so by the end of August the V1 raids had largely ceased although some were still launched from planes.

Now though, the V2 rockets were launched. Although they were not much more destructive than the V1, they could not be detected by radar, nor could they be shot down because of the high speeds at which they travelled. As the allied forces advanced in Europe, the V2 launchers were either captured or pushed back out of range. The attacks finally ended at the end of March 1945.

Although the V1s and V2s did not cause the large scale devastation seen in the Blitz, they did cause terrible carnage and destruction in the immediate area they hit. Amongst the damage and casualties were:

In June 1944 a V1 scored a direct hit on the Wellington Barracks Guards Chapel killing 119 people
Also in June the London Library was damage
5 houses were demolished and 24 people killed at Highbury Corner in the same month.
An animal health institute was destroyed in Battersea
By the beginning of July, 200,000 houses were damaged and needing repair.
At the beginning of July 1944 Sloane Court was hit killing 26 people
160 people were killed in a Woolworths store in South London in November 1945
In March 1945 134 people died in Stepney, East London
V2s killed more than 2500 people and seriously injured almost 6000 "

http://london.allinfo-about.com/features/rockets.html

	14-02-2005 19:06									#98
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Easy to say with the benefit of hindsight. " After the horror of the Blitz in 1940 and 1941, London continued to suffer from air raids but not on the same scale. It wasn't until June 1944 that Londoners again suffered from daily indiscriminate bombing but this time it was the V1 (also called doodlebugs) and V2 rockets. Throughout the 1930s German scientists had been working on flying bombs and rockets. By October 1942 they had successfully tested a rocket, 46 feet long and able to carry a one ton warhead. It could travel more than 200 miles at a speed of 3600 miles per hour. This was developed into the V2 rocket. At the same time, the V1 flying bomb had also been developed. Although it was not as good as the V2, it was cheaper to produce. The British Government knew about the development of these two weapons and tended to take a pessimistic view of the damage and carnage they could cause. To slow down production, raids were launched on German factories. The British and Americans commenced Operation Overlord, the invasion of France, on 6th January 1944. Just six days later the first V1 flying bombs descended on London. Only one of the ten launched arrived in London killing six people in the East End. Within days V1s were being launched at the rate of 100 per day. Almost half were shot down by fighter pilots and guns but the remainder hit the capital. As these rockets were launched in daytime, they caused large numbers of casualties because there were more people out and about. Londoners became accustomed to hearing the sound of a rocket's engine and to breathing a sigh of relief when it went over or waiting for death if the engine cut out just overhead. As the allies advanced in France, the Germans lost their launch sites so by the end of August the V1 raids had largely ceased although some were still launched from planes. Now though, the V2 rockets were launched. Although they were not much more destructive than the V1, they could not be detected by radar, nor could they be shot down because of the high speeds at which they travelled. As the allied forces advanced in Europe, the V2 launchers were either captured or pushed back out of range. The attacks finally ended at the end of March 1945. Although the V1s and V2s did not cause the large scale devastation seen in the Blitz, they did cause terrible carnage and destruction in the immediate area they hit. Amongst the damage and casualties were: In June 1944 a V1 scored a direct hit on the Wellington Barracks Guards Chapel killing 119 people Also in June the London Library was damage 5 houses were demolished and 24 people killed at Highbury Corner in the same month. An animal health institute was destroyed in Battersea By the beginning of July, 200,000 houses were damaged and needing repair. At the beginning of July 1944 Sloane Court was hit killing 26 people 160 people were killed in a Woolworths store in South London in November 1945 In March 1945 134 people died in Stepney, East London V2s killed more than 2500 people and seriously injured almost 6000 " http://london.allinfo-about.com/features/rockets.html

So, if terror bombing wasn't hindering the british war effort, why would they think it would hinder the german war effort?


What you are quoting seems to suggest that hindsight wasn't required.

	14-02-2005 19:22									#99
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quote: 160 people were killed in a Woolworths store in South London in November 1945

Erm, the war was over by then...

Again, this should not be a discussion about the moral justification of the bombings. There is none.
By the logic some have stated in this thread it would be morally ok for any Vietnamese bomber crew to fly incendiary raids on Los Angeles for several years. (refers to the one with "obliterating villages for one nazi", which did US-troops in Vietnam as well)

The Coventry example is IMO a ray of hope for our times. I applaude the gesture.
Also many people from the former Allied countries donated money for the reconstruction of Dresden´s cultural sites. This is why the Frauenkirche now stands in new (old) glory.
Thank you very much!

	14-02-2005 22:02									#100
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MIlitary targets could and were hit by daylight "precision" bombing- nightime incendiary raids are indiscriminiate affairs: thats the point of contention- one thing is trying to hit war industry and targets of military importance while trying to minimize civlian deaths. Bombing indescriminately, which is what Bomber Command did, is quite another thing, and hence the moral questions.

	14-02-2005 22:49									#101
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd So, if terror bombing wasn't hindering the british war effort, why would they think it would hinder the german war effort?

Because we could do it more effectively.

	14-02-2005 22:53									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious There's something wrong with your thinking. Of course I didn't imply that the Germans had surrendered and the Allies bombed them anyway. My point is that the bombing did not break their moral (it was already broken)

...which is why they carried on fighting? And dropping bombs and rockets on us? Mere weeks after the Battle of the Bulge? That's what "broken morale" means, is it?

quote: , and it did not force a surrender. It served no purpose.

I'm going to start copy & pasting the expression "20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing". I can't be arsed to type it out in my every response to you.

	14-02-2005 22:57									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I said the German people lost the will to fight because of the bombing.

According to the stragtegic bombing assessment conducted by the US after the war, the opposite was true, and it has remained true to this day. Bombing a civilian population causes them to rally around their government, not break their will. The suvey concluded that the only appreciable effect long range bombing had in hastening the end of the war was the bombing of Poloesti, which cut off German oil supplies.

	14-02-2005 22:59									#104
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Kamrat X, that opening post from the Green Party reads like Soviet propaganda. Makes one wonder about whether the Greens are new home of communism.

For example, news about Dresden reached the US public in May of 1945, IIRC. The news was came from Swedish reporters who visited the city and reported what they saw.

George Marshall said at the time that Dresden had been bombed at the request of Stalin made at the Yalta conference approximate a week earlier. Apparently the raid was in support of Soviet operations in the area.

The problem, of course, is the means chosen. Use of the British bombers virtually guaranteed what happened because the Brits bombed at night and used incendiaries. Had the US only bombed using HE and targeting only the rail communications for example, a lot less damage would have been done to civilian areas.

	14-02-2005 23:05									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse But the real tragedy was nazism which most Germans enthusiastically embraced.

Given that the Nazis never acheived more than 44% in free elections, this is not a provable assertion. Furthermore, the Nazis themselves estiamted that half of that vote was a protest vote, against the other parties, and not support for them. At best, somehwere between a quarter and a fifth of Germans embraced the Nazis. The rest were hijacked.

	14-02-2005 23:10									#106
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I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned it yet - but Dresden was stuffed with many thousands of refugees at the time. That 35,000 casualty figure must be bullshit.

quote: Given that the Nazis never acheived more than 44% in free elections, this is not a provable assertion. Furthermore, the Nazis themselves estiamted that half of that vote was a protest vote, against the other parties, and not support for them. At best, somehwere between a quarter and a fifth of Germans embraced the Nazis. The rest were hijacked.

Depends on the electoral system. 44% of a Brit general election gives a working majority of seats... strange but true.

	14-02-2005 23:11									#107
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"The Russian Request for Allied Bombing of Communications in the Dresden Area:

17. The Allied-Russian interchanges that had begun in the closing months of 1944 and had become, with the passing of time, more frequent and more specific, culminated in the ARGONAUT Conferences of January-February 1945. On 4 February, President Roosevelt, Prime Minister Churchill, and Marshal Stalin, together with their foreign secretaries and military advisors, assembled at Yalta to present definitive and specific plans, and requests, for bringing the war against Germany to a victorious conclusion, by the summer of 1945, if possible (Other considerations involved in the ARGONAUT deliberations are not pertinent or relevant here). At this meeting, Marshal Stalin asked Army General Antonov, Deputy Chief of the Russian General Staff, to outline to the Conference the situation existing on the Eastern Front and to describe Russia’s plans for subsequent operations. At the conclusion of his extended presentation, General Antonov made three specific requests for Allied assistance to the Russians: 27

Our wishes are:
a. To speed up the advance of the Allied troops on the Western Front, for which the present situation is very favorable: (1) To defeat the Germans on the Eastern Front. (2) To defeat the German groupings which have advanced into the Ardennes. (3) The weakening of the German forces in the West in connection with the shifting of their reserves to the East (It is desirable to begin the advance during the first half of February).
b. By air action on communications hinder the enemy from carrying out the shifting of his troops to the East from the Western Front, from Norway, and from Italy (In particular, to paralyze the junctions of Berlin and Leipzig).
c. Not permit the enemy to remove his forces from Italy.

18. It was the specific Russian request for bombing communications, coupled with the emphasis on forcing troops to shift from west to east through communications centers, that led to the Allied bombings of Dresden. The structure of the Berlin-Leipzig-Dresden railway complex, as outlined in paragraph 8 above, required that Dresden, as well as Berlin and Leipzig, be bombed. Therefore Allied air authorities concluded that the bombing of Dresden would have to be undertaken (1) in order to implement strategic objectives, of mutual importance to the Allies and the Russians, and now agreed upon at the highest levels of governmental authority, and (2) to respond to the specific Russian request presented to the Allies by General Antonov to “paralyze the junctions of Berlin and Leipzig.”

The Recommendation and Authority for the Allied Air Forces’ Bombing of Dresden:

19. On 8 February 1945 SHAEF (Air) informed the RAF Bomber Command and the United States Strategic Air Forces that Dresden was among a number of targets that had been selected for bombing because of their importance in relation to the movements of military forces to the Eastern Front.28 This action, based upon the authoritative recommendation of the Combined Strategic Targets Committee, SHAEF (Air), and in turn based upon the recommendations of the Joint Intelligence Committee (see paragraph 16 above), was in keeping with the procedural structure and authority set up in SHAEF for the conduct of aerial operations by Allied forces.29

20. Allied aerial operations were ultimately the responsibility of the Supreme Commander, General Eisenhower, though normally he delegated the immediate authority for employment of Allied air forces to his Deputy Supreme Commander, Marshal Tedder. The latter, in turn, relied upon the commanders of the RAF Bomber Command and the United States Strategic Air Forces (General Carl Spaatz, Commanding) for the actual conduct of specific strategic aerial operations. The top commanders of the Allied strategic bomber forces were required to conduct all of their operations within the framework of bombing directives laid down to them by the Combined Chiefs of Staff (the British Chiefs of Staff and the American Joint Chiefs of Staff). In February 1945, when SHAEF (Air) directed the bombing of Dresden in immediate support of the Russians and in keeping with strategic objectives of mutual interest to the Allies and the Russians, the strategic objectives of mutual interest o the Allies and the Russians, the strategic bomber forces were operating under the authority of the Combined Chiefs of Staff (CCS) “Directive No. 3 for the Strategic Air Forces in Europe,” dated 12 January 1945.30 The second priority, after bombing of the German petroleum industry for the Allied strategic air forces was, in that directive, listed as the bombing of “German lines of communications.”31 The authority for and the ordering of the bombing of Dresden by Allied strategic air forces and the steps taken to carry out these orders were therefore within the framework of the existing basic CCS Directive No. 3 governing the operations of the Allied strategic air forces in Europe.

Information Officially Given to the Russians by the Allies Concerning the Intended Date of and the Forces to be Committed to the Bombing of Dresden:

21. Although the exact procedures for maintaining day to day liaison between the Russians and the Allies on Allied bombing operations was for a long time the subject of negotiation between the Allies and the Russians, certain procedures for such liaison were nevertheless in effect prior to the Allied bombings of Dresden.32 Therefore, the following actions were taken by Allied authorities to notify the Russians that in accordance with their expressed wishes as to actions and timing, stated at the ARGONAUT Conference on 4 February 1945, Allied strategic air forces would bomb Dresden during the first half of February.33

22. On 7 February 1945, General Spaatz, Commanding General, United States Strategic Air Forces, informed Major General J. R. Deane, Chief of the United States Military Mission, Moscow, that the communications targets for strategic bombing by the Eighth Air Force were, in the order of their priority, Berlin, Leipzig, Dresden, Cheanitz (and others of lesser importance).34 On the same date, General Spaatz also notified General Deane that a 24-hour advance notice of the intention to conduct actual bombing operations against Dresden (and the other targets of mutual concern to the Russians and the Allies) would be forwarded in order that General Deane might so notify the Russians.35 Moscow notified the proper Russian authority that Dresden was among the targets selected for strategic bombing by the American Eighth Air Force.36 On February, General Spaatz informed the United States Military Mission that, weather permitting, the Eighth Air Force intended to attack the Dresden Marshalling Yards with a force of 1200 to 1400 bomber planes on 13 February.37 On 12 February, therefore, the Russians were informed of the Americans’ intention to bomb Dresden.38 Weather conditions did not permit the Eighth Air Force to carry out its attack against Dresden on 13 February.39 Accordingly, on 13 February by similar procedures the Americans informed the Russians, that the Eighth Air Force would attack the Dresden Marshalling Yards on the 14th.40 Subsequently, the Russians were informed by the Americans that Dresden, together with the other high priority communications centers targets, would be subject to attack whenever weather conditions permitted.41

The Forces and Means Employed by the Allies in the Bombing of Dresden:

23. In the Dresden bombing attacks of 14-15 February 1945 the American Eighth Air Force and the RAF Bomber Command together employed a total of 1299 bomber aircraft (527 from the Eighth Air Force, 722 from the RAF Bomber Command) for a total weight, on targets, of 3906.9 tons. Of this tonnage, 1247.6 tons were expanded by the Eighth Air Force, 2659.3 tons by the RAF Bomber Command. The Americans employed 953.3 tons of high explosive bombs and 294.3 tons of incendiary bombs--all aimed at the Dresden Marshalling Yards. The British employed 1477.7 tons of high explosive bombs and 1181.6 tons of incendiary bombs--all aimed against the Dresden city area.42 The American aircraft used H2X (radar) bombing method, with visual assists, and the British used the marker and visual method.43

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mi...ics/dresden.htm

	14-02-2005 23:16									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kamrat X, that opening post from the Green Party reads like Soviet propaganda. Makes one wonder about whether the Greens are new home of communism.

The Green Left Weekly is not a Green paper. It is an Australian communist paper of the poltical tendency to which I and Dracon II adhere.

	14-02-2005 23:23									#109
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Che, and do you also support the statement that the bombing of Dreden was an allied plot to impress the Soviets of the savagery of its imperialist war machine?

	14-02-2005 23:25									#110
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara According to the stragtegic bombing assessment conducted by the US after the war, the opposite was true, and it has remained true to this day. Bombing a civilian population causes them to rally around their government, not break their will.

Well, most of the so-called "Schicksalsgemeinschaft" is a myth created by nazi propaganda. Internal NS documents report a picture that is a lot more different. Civilian morale was seriously affected, criticism was made increasingly about the NS regime in cities that were bombed, social tensions and conflicts between various groups of the civilian population broke out - but in one thing you're right: this all didn't lead to a total breakdown of morale.

Even in this situation, there were numerous reasons for most Germans to continue fighting (or at least they thought they had those reasons), like fear of revenge, hope that the "Führer" will ensure the "Endsieg" somehow, hope fore new "Wunderwaffen" (all of these things also fueled by NS propaganda), or the simple idea that fighting would be their duty. I think the British side made a gross miscalculation, from the nature of the NS regime it seems more plausible that Hitler et al would have contiunued the fight at all costs even in the face of worse bombardments and that they would have repressed any serious opposition to that.

	14-02-2005 23:41									#111
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no one is discussing the important news.

Germans are comparing the bombing of Dresden to the bomging of Baghdad!!

quote: "Allied bomb terror -- then as now. Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden and today Baghdad. No forgiveness, no forgetting."

	14-02-2005 23:44									#112
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Who does this?

	14-02-2005 23:45									#113
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Who does this?

read the article. germans.

sure they are neo-nazis. but neo-nazis are people too.

	14-02-2005 23:46									#114
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But nobody takes them seriously.

	14-02-2005 23:52									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kamrat X, that opening post from the Green Party reads like Soviet propaganda. Makes one wonder about whether the Greens are new home of communism.

Well, the GLF is the mouthpiece of the Democratic Socialist Perspective, former trotskyists turned enviromentalists. I don´t know if there is a "proper" Green Party in Australia.

And I´ve read the multiple posts by "the other side" and I´m starting to have second thoughts. There is, with no doubt, a certain amount of propaganda in the article. ie the status of Dresden and why the city was bombed in the first place, etc. But I´m to shaky in my historical knowledge to say that either side is correct. As ususal the truth is, I presume, somewhere in the middle. But I´ve been meaning to catch up on my WWII history anyway so...

	15-02-2005 00:06									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp I'm going to start copy & pasting the expression "20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing". I can't be arsed to type it out in my every response to you.

Please do stop typing that. It doesn't make any sense. Of course everyone knew the end of the war was near. It was 1945 for goodness sake.

	15-02-2005 00:42									#117
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara According to the stragtegic bombing assessment conducted by the US after the war, the opposite was true, and it has remained true to this day. Bombing a civilian population causes them to rally around their government, not break their will. The suvey concluded that the only appreciable effect long range bombing had in hastening the end of the war was the bombing of Poloesti, which cut off German oil supplies.

I remember seeing something about a German petrol additive plant that was not particularly well guarded but if they'd have thought to hit it, destroying this one plant could have shortened the war considerably as fuel production in Germany would have come to a standstill pretty quickly...

	15-02-2005 00:53									#118
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Am watching some BBC regional programme at the moment, it's about the bombing campaign. They're talking about German civilians who lynched RAF airmen who bailed out after being hit. The thing that bothers me is the near total indifference regarding the destruction that these airmen had just caused on the ground... for instance, the presenter said something about one town in which 18,000 [sic] people were killed in one raid, but that's about all the attention they've given to the massive civilian death toll... the way the programme seems to be justifying the killing of the civilians because the civilians later lynched airmen sickens me.

Just my two cents.

	15-02-2005 01:13									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Please do stop typing that. It doesn't make any sense. Of course everyone knew the end of the war was near. It was 1945 for goodness sake.

January 1945. An interview with a Londoner, according to Kidicious.

"No, I don't think we should bomb German cities. I admit that it was only a few days ago that the German armed forces had made the Allied forces on the Western Front soil themselves with shock when they surged out of the Ardennes, and it's true that a V2 has just blown up my family. However I know for a fact that the war will be over this year, so further bombing is pointless.

I know this because a voice from the future told me so."

	15-02-2005 01:21									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, and do you also support the statement that the bombing of Dreden was an allied plot to impress the Soviets of the savagery of its imperialist war machine?

I'd say that was definately in the minds of the Allies when they did it.