15-02-2005 02:31									#121
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This whole thread is clearly pointless.

Obviously, if you look at it on an individual scale, the civilians of Dresden deserve sympathy. They, like many others, were unfortunate casualties of war.

But if you want to point the finger at a country and say it was their fault, the bombing of Dresden is clearly Germany's own fault. Maybe if they hadn't beaten up on Czechoslovakia, Poland, Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, and dozens of other countries, people wouldn't have bombed their asses.

	15-02-2005 03:20									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp January 1945. An interview with a Londoner, according to Kidicious. "No, I don't think we should bomb German cities. I admit that it was only a few days ago that the German armed forces had made the Allied forces on the Western Front soil themselves with shock when they surged out of the Ardennes, and it's true that a V2 has just blown up my family. However I know for a fact that the war will be over this year, so further bombing is pointless. I know this because a voice from the future told me so."

Fortunately I rarely get into these things with you. This is a pointless discussion. You're being ridiculous.

	15-02-2005 04:35									#123
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom The British and Americans commenced Operation Overlord, the invasion of France, on 6th January 1944. Just six days later the first V1 flying bombs descended on London. Only one of the ten launched arrived in London killing six people in the East End. Within days V1s were being launched at the rate of 100 per day. Almost half were shot down by fighter pilots and guns but the remainder hit the capital. http://london.allinfo-about.com/features/rockets.html

errr-- D-Day was the 6th of JUNE

I don't know if all of that was a quote but it makes the "just 6 days later" piece questionable if they don't get D-Day right

	15-02-2005 04:38									#124
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More generally, while I am very sorry for the population of Dresden, this was an era when unrestricted warfare was the order of the day and civilian populations were regularly targets. I'm not saying that is right but it was the way it was.

This discussion always reminds me of the nuking of Japan discussion where the same people on each side trot out the same arguments.

	15-02-2005 05:45									#125
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Can someone from Germany here tell me the correct translation of what I understand is "We are fed up with the Nazis"? The news in the United States says that thousands of candles (or lights of some kind) were lit in Dresden to show their opposition to the neonazis who are also demonstrating there. It seems as if most in Dresden learned a valuable lesson about attacking their neighbors while a few still want revenge.

My view on the bombing of Dresden is that war is hell. If you start one in order to expand your terrortory at the expense of your neighbors and support the leaders who lead the charge then you can expect that hell to visit you. I see no history of the citizens of Dresden protesting the activities of Hitler or their nation during the war. If there is a history of opposition I will gladly stand corrected. Why don't those on this forum who believe in collective guilt agree that Germany got what they deserved? Now the bleeding hearts would like us to give reparations to Dresden I suppose...

	15-02-2005 06:13									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Can someone from Germany here tell me the correct translation of what I understand is "We are fed up with the Nazis"?

"Wir haben genug von den Nazis!" - quite calm
"Wir haben die Nase voll von den Nazis!" - slightly angry
"Wir haben die Schnauze voll von den Scheiss Nazis!" - very angry, vulgar

quote: The news in the United States says that thousands of candles (or lights of some kind) were lit in Dresden to show their opposition to the neonazis who are also demonstrating there. It seems as if most in Dresden learned a valuable lesson about attacking their neighbors while a few still want revenge.

Most Germans today are pacifists, which is why Germany had such a strong anti-Bush stance in the recent past. We have learned from history what should be a fundamental truth:
"In peace, the sons bury their fathers, while in war the fathers bury their sons."
Though the protest was rather against the party of the Neonazis than against the little demonstration of baldheaded idiots. That party (NPD) had just recently gained 9% of all votes in Saxony (the federal country Dresden is capital of). Thatīs why there were so many people protesting the neo-nazis. Almost every week thereīs an anti-NPD demonstration in Dresden, because that city is the capital and thus headquarters of the Nazi-party.

quote: My view on the bombing of Dresden is that war is hell. If you start one in order to expand your terrortory at the expense of your neighbors and support the leaders who lead the charge then you can expect that hell to visit you. I see no history of the citizens of Dresden protesting the activities of Hitler or their nation during the war. If there is a history of opposition I will gladly stand corrected. Why don't those on this forum who believe in collective guilt agree that Germany got what they deserved? Now the bleeding hearts would like us to give reparations to Dresden I suppose...

Yeah, this is an argument I have heard many times. While personally I like the comparison between Hitler and some of todayīs politicians (no names, donīt want to start *that* discussion again ), you mustnīt confuse the German society of the 1940s with the modern American society. Ok, if you donīt like Bushīs politics, you go out on the streets and protest him. Of course youīd be called "leftie" or "communist" or "liberal", but that should be about all you will have to take.
Back then, in Germany, there were quite neat organizations like the SS and the GeStaPo. Both of them pretty well known as brutal militant organizations killing people who donīt fit into the Führerīs vision of what is a "good German".
Now hereīs a hint: Those organizations didnīt operate solely in occupied territory

There were several protests in the early 1930s, but as soon as those protesters disappeared mysteriously during the nights most people "reconsidered" their official stance towards the regime...

	15-02-2005 06:24									#127
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Thanks for your response, Micha. And yes I knew about disappearing protesters etc. The reason for my post was mostly to see if those who believe in collective guilt (eg. Ward Chruchill and his equating the victims of 9/11 to Nazis or "little Eichmans" for supporting wars by not protesting and continuing to pay taxes etc.)

I really am not so sure that I am not guilty for some of the crimes of the United States because I am too lazy to protest and I pay my taxes. Anyway, I am part Indian so I guess I am off the hook.

	15-02-2005 08:07									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Come to the obvious conclusion, even back then, that this action would do nothing to achieve your stated goal.

Except that wasn't clear at all at the time. Again, there were people who advocated bombing of civilian targets as a way to win wars. They were not proven wrong until things were studied after the war.

quote: Originally posted by General Ludd So, if terror bombing wasn't hindering the british war effort, why would they think it would hinder the german war effort? What you are quoting seems to suggest that hindsight wasn't required.

The propoenents of area bombing insisted that more force was required to achieve the desired result. Hence Bomber Command and massive raids with incendiaries and then further raids staggered over the following hours or days to keep the fire fighters from putting out the blazes.

It wasn't until extensive studies were conducted after the war that the arguments for civilian bombings were largely discredited.

Even then, you have to take into account that the bombing campaigns did produce some of the desired results. One of the few was the USAAF targeting of the German fuel and aircraft industries. By concentrating on a narrow target group, they managed to overwhelm the ability of the Germans to repair and return to business. At the same time, many civilians were killed. 'Precision bombing' with a B17 from 10,000 feet is a myth. They too plastered entire areas that often contained civilian quarters.

quote: Originally posted by GePap MIlitary targets could and were hit by daylight "precision" bombing- nightime incendiary raids are indiscriminiate affairs: thats the point of contention- one thing is trying to hit war industry and targets of military importance while trying to minimize civlian deaths. Bombing indescriminately, which is what Bomber Command did, is quite another thing, and hence the moral questions.

Many of the moral questions are baloney. It was acceptable at the time to unleash fleets of bombers on civilian centres. The USAAF did exactly the same thing to Berlin. They plastered the city, all of it, and they did it by day. It happens that the RAF got really, really good at it. The horror results when one examines what is possible to achieve using the exact same tactics that the Germans employed on London, except with larger numbers of aircraft carrying larger loads and then returning to suppress fire fighting.

The issue with Dresden should not be the method and level of destruction. It was at the time, and should remain the level of destruction at that late date.

	15-02-2005 17:50									#129
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Except that wasn't clear at all at the time. Again, there were people who advocated bombing of civilian targets as a way to win wars. They were not proven wrong until things were studied after the war.

But some people still don't know that today, like a certain Greek equine.

	15-02-2005 19:12									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned it yet - but Dresden was stuffed with many thousands of refugees at the time. That 35,000 casualty figure must be bullshit.

Must it? I suggest you research the numbers of casualties arrived at by the authorities in Dresden, in the aftermath of the bombing.

One of David Irving's greatest successes is getting people to believe not only his propaganda, but also Goebbels'. One of his simplest methods was to put a figure 1 in front of 35 000.

Hoopla! 35 000 becomes 135 000 and people believe it.

	15-02-2005 22:44									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Fortunately I rarely get into these things with you. This is a pointless discussion. You're being ridiculous.

Very far from it. Read up on WW2 history, particularly "The miracle of the West" and the Battle of the Bulge. You'll see why, in January 1945, it was entirely sensible for Allied military commanders to conclude that the morale of the Germans was very far from broken. At the moment you can't shake off hindsightism.

	16-02-2005 17:25									#132
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It wasn't until extensive studies were conducted after the war that the arguments for civilian bombings were largely discredited.

That simply isn't true - the main effect of the bombing was to convince 2 very militarist nations, Germany and Japan, to become pacifist nations and examples to the world. It had an immense impact.

Now imagine what sustained area bombing could achieve in North America

	16-02-2005 18:20									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST What about things like: Bomb Railwaytracks, Roads, Bridges, and the factories you mentioned instead of carpet bombing the residential areas to inflict a firestorm.

Precision bombing is difficult to this day with laser guided bombs and computer controlled rockets. In WW2 the British tried it for two years and nearly got their air force destroyed without hitting the targets. The word came down that they couldn't keep losing aircraft without hitting the target so carpet bombing was started to make sure the target was hit.

	16-02-2005 19:22									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Precision bombing is difficult to this day with laser guided bombs and computer controlled rockets. In WW2 the British tried it for two years and nearly got their air force destroyed without hitting the targets. The word came down that they couldn't keep losing aircraft without hitting the target so carpet bombing was started to make sure the target was hit.

Exactly this is what I meant:
Carpetbombing the Areas where the important installations could be found instead of (intentional and successfully) trying to inflict a firestorm in the inner city, an area where (even with the firestorm) chances would be minimal to cause any damage on important installations (whereas the chance to cause high civilian losses wiould be maximal).
Someone in this thread mentioned that for example factories would be surrounded by the housings of workers and therefore, even attacks on these factories wouldnīt happen without civilian losses.
But they would rather be less than 10.000 instead of the ~35000 victims you got with the firestorm.

But of course my opinion doesnīt change that the firestorm did happen.
I think that it was, even for a general in WW2 ist was morally wrong to order these attacks and strategically a waste of ressources for little gain (just as the bombings of city areas by the Luftwaffe [AFAIK the Luftwaffe did well when they just bombed important Industries; when they switched to the english cities instead, they gave the british war industry time to recover and rebuild]).
And even the public opinion during WW2 seems to have seen the Firestorm of Dresden as morally wrong, as it caused Churchill (despite him being the one who orfdered them) to comdemn the Bombings, as soon as they got known to the public (who, before that, were told that the RAF just targetted the german war industry and military and not the civilians) and to sacrifice Arthur Harris as a Scapegoat.

	16-02-2005 19:32									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Precision bombing is difficult to this day with laser guided bombs and computer controlled rockets. In WW2 the British tried it for two years and nearly got their air force destroyed without hitting the targets. The word came down that they couldn't keep losing aircraft without hitting the target so carpet bombing was started to make sure the target was hit.

Still, the US kept up "precision" daylight bombing the entire war.

Note also that when a bomber did not release its load over target, it had to wait 'til it was over water to dump its bomb load.

Now compare this reality to communist propaganda about the savagery of the US Army Airforce.

	17-02-2005 01:54									#136
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nope, the US airforce used area bombing

	17-02-2005 22:39									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Still, the US kept up "precision" daylight bombing the entire war. Note also that when a bomber did not release its load over target, it had to wait 'til it was over water to dump its bomb load.

No they didn't, as anyone who knows anything about the war in the Pacific could tell you.


Your attempts to continually absolve the U. S. Air Force from ever doing anything potentially 'unpleasant' get more and more ridiculous.


I suppose Hiroshima and Nagasaki were loved to death with drops of marshmallows and Hershey bars.

	18-02-2005 02:02									#138
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom No they didn't, as anyone who knows anything about the war in the Pacific could tell you. Your attempts to continually absolve the U. S. Air Force from ever doing anything potentially 'unpleasant' get more and more ridiculous.

They are pretty much the same attempts that he made a few years ago.

	18-02-2005 05:13									#139
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	18-02-2005 06:31									#140
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Does laurentius have some kind of funky virus?

	18-02-2005 07:08									#141
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No, he's just drunk.

	18-02-2005 10:07									#142
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The current crop of German extremists complaining of Dresden sounds like the school bully complaining that someone actually hit him back It's not who wins who's at fault, but who starts it.

Dresden sounds like a lot of overkill, but the article lost me when it claimed the allies to be "imperialist forces" when they were trying to win a war someone else started.

Yes, we should look back and question the tactics used in this instance, but nothing can square up the murdering of millions of jews and other civilians perpetrated by Hitler and his followers.

	18-02-2005 10:18									#143
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Wir haben die Schnauze voll von den Scheiss Nazis!

	18-02-2005 14:31									#144
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom No they didn't, as anyone who knows anything about the war in the Pacific could tell you. Your attempts to continually absolve the U. S. Air Force from ever doing anything potentially 'unpleasant' get more and more ridiculous. I suppose Hiroshima and Nagasaki were loved to death with drops of marshmallows and Hershey bars.

Molly, the topic here was the war in Europe. What I said about not dropping bombs randomly over enemy territory is true, AFAIK. My uncle was a B-17 pilot. He told me this himself. Was he lying?

As to Japan, clearly LeMay and McNamara changed the rules. I think they were both racists from the way they behaved both in that war and later during Vietnam.

	18-02-2005 14:32									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse nope, the US airforce used area bombing

The US Airforce did not use area bombing in Europe unless it participated in one of Britain's level the city campaigns.

	18-02-2005 14:35									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin They are pretty much the same attempts that he made a few years ago.

There is no doubt that the way we behaved against the Japanese was barbarous. Perhaps we did so because of Pearl Harbor or because of US racism. But we behaved very differently against the Germans. Very.

	18-02-2005 15:17									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Ned There is no doubt that the way we behaved against the Japanese was barbarous. Perhaps we did so because of Pearl Harbor or because of US racism. But we behaved very differently against the Germans. Very.

One of the reason, germans (civilians as well as soldiers) rather wanted to fall into the hands of the western allies and not into the hands of the russians.
History proves that fears to fall into the hands of the russians were justified.
Often they took revenge for the atrocities the german army commited in russia by commiting atrocities to german civilians themselves (there are especially a lot of accounts of sowjet soldiers raping german women [of all ages]).
The german P.O.W.s also didnīt fare better, as many german prisoners died in russian POW-Camps because of the harsh conditions there.

Things you donīt hear of the american/british soldiers (and POW-Camps)

	18-02-2005 15:18									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The US Airforce did not use area bombing in Europe unless it participated in one of Britain's level the city campaigns.

Ned, they blew up every square inch of Berlin, and a few other cities.

Was that precision bombing?

	18-02-2005 20:09									#149
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NYE, as I said. There were exceptions. They joined with the Brits at their request to destroy certain cities. Among them were Hamburg, Cologne and Berlin. Still, I understand that our own command were more than reluctant to participate in such actions, as clearly the targets were not strictly military.

Very telling on this issue was the extreme embarrasment the administration felt when news of Dresden reached the American public. Also consider that when Truman annouced the use of the first atomic bomb, he said it had been dropped on a "military base."

Attacks on civilians went against everything America was purportedly fighting for. While we did it, we did it reluctantly and without public fanfare, and with ruses and disguises so that the truth would not leak to the American public.

	19-02-2005 03:59									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Attacks on civilians went against everything America was purportedly fighting for. While we did it, we did it reluctantly and without public fanfare, and with ruses and disguises so that the truth would not leak to the American public.

I think it's probably worse that a miltary takes 'atrocious' actions and hides or distorts the fact from the public to gain support.