15-02-2005 06:29									#61
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quote: what pork specifically?

Farm subsidies, weapons programs, the space shuttle, the space station. I've got plenty of ideas with billions of dollars beside each one.

	15-02-2005 08:36									#62
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the last article that was posted had that the pork was only 16 billion.

	15-02-2005 09:03									#63
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quote: Farm subsidies, weapons programs, the space shuttle, the space station. I've got plenty of ideas with billions of dollars beside each one.

excellent, so why do you persist in defending the prez when you clearly know that hes wrong?

quote: the last article that was posted had that the pork was only 16 billion.

we can cut defense spending in 1/2 - thats $100 billion right there - without endangering ourselves. ending the war on drugs and aid to israel cuts another $4 billion, with other indirect effets such as less costs for jails since theres less people in them.

we can also cut education - america spends more per child then most european countries, yet we are always underperforming. theres somethng wrong with that. the money is there, but so is the bureacracy. we need to cut out the bureacracy, and cut education spending.

	15-02-2005 09:50									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Sava DanS is just confused... because America has moved so far to the right, a non-partisan group like the EPI seems like a liberal group.

This summarizes what has happened to our hijacked country over the last 4 years.

	15-02-2005 12:42									#65
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Democrats, as usual, complain about the deficit, but will fight like wild animals to prevent any socialist program from being cut or reduced. But when it comes to the national defense, yeah, their the first to propose the most draconian cuts. Remember the campaign? Kerry proposed cutting 6 billion from intelligence. Yeah, that's right. Kerry was in favor of gutting intelligence.

I think Bush is going to have to veto a few bills because the Dems are not going to cooperate on cutting spending.

	15-02-2005 13:33									#66
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Ned - false statement. Budget bills CANNOT be filibustered. You should know better. Since they cannot be filibustered, and the Republicans control all branches of government - the President, Congress, and SCOTUS (large majority Republican appointees) - don't blame the Democrats. You factual points lend you much more credence than blatantly false statements like that. Any problems with spending builds are solely the responsibility of the Republicans, as are the spoils.

	15-02-2005 14:02									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia since the CBO is non partisan group...

They are not a non partisan group, they are a bipartisan group who represent the professional politicians in congress. They definitely have an axe to grind, but instead of shading the figures to shaft the members of a particular party they instead shade the figures to benefit the political establishment.

	15-02-2005 14:13									#68
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quote: Originally posted by DanS My point is that the fiscal situation has turned the corner. To hear some talk of it, quite the opposite would be true.

Care to bet avatars? Winner gets to choose the loser's avatar for one month. My claim is that when all is said and done, when the war costs Bush has left out are added, if/when Bush's social security spending is added, when Congress finishes dumping on their supplimental bills, and everything else... The deficit will be larger in 2005 then in 2004.

Are you willing to bet your avatar on your belief that we've "turned the corner"?

	15-02-2005 14:34									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle yeah, cut the pork, keep the tax cuts.

There isn't enough pork on the whole hog to balance the budget that way.

	15-02-2005 14:56									#70
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Except the military spending - "Oops, but that's different."

Note, I am NOT talking about the equipment for our troops in the field. That's shameful. I am talking new ships, the missle defense program, no-bid contracts (care to say Haliburton), deploying the Stryker instead of the superior and cheaper M113 stretch/synthetic armor variant, et al.

	15-02-2005 15:18									#71
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As long as we're on the subject of Bush's star wars program I thought I'd point out it failed yet another test today. The test was completely rigged in it's favor and it still belly flopped like a fat kid jumping in a pool. They had a year to prepare, they knew the exact missile type to hit ahead of time, they knew the exact second of launch, they knew the exact path the target missile would take, and... when they pressed the launch button the defense missile didn't even take off!

$200 billion and they can't even get their system to turn on reliably. :shame

	15-02-2005 18:44									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It is a truly informative & objective read which shows how deep of a hole Republicans have put the United States into. So what is the coming crunch? Currently the US public doesn't have enough capital to cover the government's reckless borrowing so countries like Japan & China have had to finance it. The problem is this can't last forever. After Bush's tax cuts to the top 1% of American society the Federal government now takes, in inflation adjusted terms , about the same amount of money it did in the 1950's while spending remains where it has been in recent decades - much higher.

Bushthink:

They are putting US more into red
GOP is red
Therefore the deficit is good.

	15-02-2005 20:07									#73
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quote: Are you willing to bet your avatar on your belief that we've "turned the corner"?

Sure, I'm willing to bet that this fiscal year the deficit will be better as a percentage of the economy versus last fiscal year.

	15-02-2005 20:09									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia excellent, so why do you persist in defending the prez when you clearly know that hes wrong? we can cut defense spending in 1/2 - thats $100 billion right there - without endangering ourselves. ending the war on drugs and aid to israel cuts another $4 billion, with other indirect effets such as less costs for jails since theres less people in them. we can also cut education - america spends more per child then most european countries, yet we are always underperforming. theres somethng wrong with that. the money is there, but so is the bureacracy. we need to cut out the bureacracy, and cut education spending.

which all still amounts to dick unless you take the money from where it is really being spent.

	15-02-2005 21:08									#75
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quote: Sure, I'm willing to bet that this fiscal year the deficit will be better as a percentage of the economy versus last fiscal year.

nah, make it the deficit, not the debt.

	15-02-2005 21:14									#76
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I wrote deficit. Oerdin wrote deficit. I think we're on the same page.

	15-02-2005 21:16									#77
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oops, i meant debt.

	15-02-2005 21:22									#78
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check out these interesting graphs from cato

http://www.cato.org/research/fiscal.../factsfigs.html

i especially like the one what shows bush's cumulative non defense spending increases in his first term increase by 25%, the second greatest increase in the history of the US govt.

and check out the last graph, growth of outlays under republicans. that ones my favorite (1995 - 2005) so much for you guys being responsible with out money eh?

	15-02-2005 21:43									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia CBO predicts that the unemployment rate remains constant at 5.2 % through 2006. it seems that they believe that 5.2% is the natural rate of unemployment.

Remember, these numbers are misleading.

Unemployment figures only count those people who are out looking for work. They do not count those who have given up or the U.S.'s exploding prison population. Functionally, unemployment is usually around 12%. That's quite an anchor for the economy to pull.

	15-02-2005 21:46									#80
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Dan: Ok, It wold be more favorable to me to talk about total debt but I said deficit so I won't go back on it. We are are talking about apples here now all we need to agree on is the type of apple. In inflation adjusted dollars the fiscal year deficit for year 2005 must be larger in absolute dollars then the fiscal year 2004 deficit. Would you be willing to accept that bet?

	15-02-2005 22:00									#81
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OK. That sounds about right for a proper bet. By current estimates, it is a shade in your favor. The number to beat is about $420 billion. Bookmark this post.

To be clear, this is the federal fiscal year ending September 30, 2005, not the calendar year ending December 31, 2005. Also, the measure of inflation that we use will be the Gross Domestic Product Implicit Price Deflator, which is slightly in your favor. The measure of the deficit will be the line items released by the Treasury (the one with which we're all familiar), not the "net lending" number released by the Bureau of Economic Analysis.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the deficit at less than $400 billion, but we shall see.

Last edited by DanS on 15-02-2005 at 22:16

	15-02-2005 22:33									#82
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Why wouldn't it be net lending? We we talk about the total deficit we're talking about the total amount of money borrowed, right?

Terms: The winner get to decide the avatar for the loser and the loser must continue to use that avatar for 30 days. Of course no pornographic avatars would be allowed and the avatar must comply with all of poly's rules. Other then that it is fair game. Agreed?

BTW The total deficit for the fiscal year will also take in all borrowing which is down in supplimental bills, sound fair?

	15-02-2005 22:45									#83
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quote: Why wouldn't it be net lending? We we talk about the total deficit we're talking about the total amount of money borrowed, right?

Not precisely, but for our purposes here there isn't much difference -- just as long as we are consistent in the number we use for each year.

quote: Other then that it is fair game. Agreed?

Sure.

quote: BTW The total deficit for the fiscal year will also take in all borrowing which is down in supplimental bills, sound fair?

Sure. Whatever shows up in the Treasury number of actual dollars spent and dollars received.

The deficit numbers are released every month on the 8th business day. The fiscal year 2004 federal deficit was $412.28 billion. Assuming 2% inflation, the deficit number to beat is $420.53 billion.

http://fms.treas.gov/mts/index.html

	15-02-2005 22:59									#84
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Where is all this spending going to come from again?

	15-02-2005 23:30									#85
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Farm subsidies, weapons programs, the space shuttle, the space station. I've got plenty of ideas with billions of dollars beside each one.

Though I think it's like dieting. You can reduce how much you eat and you can burn of some calories, but for any serious weight loss, you have to do both. Cut the programs above and the Bush tax cuts, and you have a sensible system. It doesn't even need to balance, but it shouldn't be over $400 billion a year away from it.

	15-02-2005 23:47									#86
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nah, he should push through more tax cuts, especially for those who make the median and under ($33,000=median)

	15-02-2005 23:51									#87
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I think Oerdin is making a bad bet, but I have no avatar to bet.

1) Social Security won't start costing anymore this year, because it won't take into effect until next year or something. And this is if it passes.

2) The war shouldn't cost more this year than last.

	16-02-2005 00:01									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia nah, he should push through more tax cuts, especially for those who make the median and under ($33,000=median)

I think he should push through the tax cuts you are talking about, but I still think the top 1% tax cuts need to be rolled back.

	16-02-2005 00:16									#89
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quote: Cut the programs above and the Bush tax cuts, and you have a sensible system.

The tax cuts are important to keep because the marginal tax rates impact the willingness of people to work to a great degree.

quote: nah, he should push through more tax cuts, especially for those who make the median and under ($33,000=median)

I agree with this. The acceptable proxy would be to allow everyone to put a portion of their payroll taxes into private retirement accounts. Research indicates that this forced savings for retirement would not be viewed as a tax and would therefore increase the willingness of people to work.

	16-02-2005 01:41									#90
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quote: I think Oerdin is making a bad bet

Now why would you think the CBO is incorrect in its forecasts?

Surely, you're nothing more than a Bush apologist.