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Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
time: 21:24
  Old Post 14-02-2005 20:03
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Bush's deficits and the coming crunch. Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The BBC has an excellent article which shows just how truly incompetent the Bush Administration and the Republicans in Congress have been at managing our nation's finances. It is a truly informative & objective read which shows how deep of a hole Republicans have put the United States into.

Much has been made of Bush's proposed cuts to the federal budget but the Washington based Economic Policy Institute (which is a nonpartisan group for sound budget policy which has been critical of Bush's deficits in the past) has conducted a full review of the proposed budget and found few of the cuts are likely to actually be passed by Congress, even a Republican controlled Congress. Further more Bush has only proposed large cuts to small programs while the giant budget monsters continue to grow are near record rates. Finally, Bush refused to include the cost of Iraq/Afghanistan (which last year accounted for $160 billion in spending) nor his proposed changes to Social Security (Bush claims that will cost $1 trillion, the CBO says $2 trillion, most economists say $3-$5 trillion). If all of Bush's budget cuts are made and spending in Iraq/Afghanistan equals last year (BTW Bush has asked for increases here) then this will be the largest deficit in the history of the country. That's impressive given the size of the previous four deficits Bush has racked up.

So what is the coming crunch? Currently the US public doesn't have enough capital to cover the government's reckless borrowing so countries like Japan & China have had to finance it. The problem is this can't last forever. After Bush's tax cuts to the top 1% of American society the Federal government now takes, in inflation adjusted terms , about the same amount of money it did in the 1950's while spending remains where it has been in recent decades - much higher. Here's what the BBC has to say:

quote:

The Bush administration's chosen remedy is the least feasible one. Reducing domestic spending, or eliminating "waste, fraud and abuse" is toothless because this slice of the budget is too small to solve the problem.

Indeed, if Congress were rash enough to balance the budget in this way, there would hardly be any such spending left.

Law enforcement, space exploration, environmental clean-up, economic development, the Small Business Administration, housing, veterans' benefits, aid to state and local governments would all but disappear.

It's fantasy to think these routine government functions could be slashed.


The lion's share of the Budget goes to Defense, Social Security, and Medical Care. The Budget cannot even get close to balanced without dealing with these. Defense especially since there are so much discretionary funds in the defense budget. New weapon systems, most of which were designed to fight the cold war, will have to be eliminated and Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy will have to be reinstated. To do anything less is financial suicide.

Why is the budget such a big deal now? The reason is the rising federal debt, which will grow in 10 years, by conservative estimates, to more than half the nation's total annual output plus the retirement of the baby boomers. Bush's solution to our social security problem is to increase debt by $2 trillion (about 1 years income for the federal government) isn't realistically possible nor is it sound economics. Doing nothing and just paying the benefits owed will would cost $1 trillion or about half of Bush's solution. Better still would be to adjust retirement ages to reflect the longer life span of modern seniors or to lift the cap on social security taxes (currently any money over $90,000 per year is tax free; meaning millionaires and the well to do are getting huge breaks the average Joes aren't).

The BBC claims that the coming credit crunch will drive up interest rates and make the dollar continue to fall to record levels unless the government states behaving responsibly. Will the Republicans start to do that? I don't know but Reagan didn't and it is looking unlikely that Bush will either.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 20:06
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To clarify the BBCs recomendations are:

First on the list should be tax reform to raise revenue, simplify the tax code, and restore some fairness eroded by the Bush tax cuts.

Second should be a dispassionate re-evaluation of the huge increase in defence spending over the past three years, much of it unrelated to Afghanistan, Iraq, or terrorism.

Third must be the start of a serious debate on large-scale health care reform.

For those who will claim that the defense increases are related to the war on terrorism the BS alarm is already sounding. Programs like Bush's $200 billion (by his estimate but, let's face it, there are always cost over runs in the 200%-300% range) have nothing to do with those two wars. There is lots and lots of non-war related fat in the defense budget which is just plain corporate welfare.

DanS is offline DanS
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 20:22 Visit DanS's homepage!
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OK, now the BBC is using partisan think tanks for its "analysis."

Discretionary spending, even minus defense, has increased substantially during Bush's term. We can trim discretionary spending for a few years and it's nowhere near "gratuitous." Like you, I would like to see what we can do to trim weapons programs. Bush is doing this as well.

As for government debt, it's not going to go through the roof as a percentage of the economy. IMF predicts it will be about the same in 5 years as it is now. Maybe a 3 percentage point increase. Mind you, that's not going the right way, but it's hardly indicative of a shock coming.

Overall, we need to decrease spending. If we don't have enough money to pay for what we want, we need to adjust our expectations of what we get from the federal government. This shouldn't be difficult, despite all the moaning and groaning from the congress that budgets are no longer increasing in the 5-10% range.

Really, I can't be bothered to fisk the whole damn article!

Last edited by DanS on 14-02-2005 at 20:35

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Dan: The Economic Policy Institute's goal is sound economics meaning a balanced budget, relatively low taxes, low federal spending, decreased regulation, and a simplified tax system. That hardly sounds like a highly partisan platform. If anything it seems like it would favor conservatives.

The EPI does support progressive taxation as a way to ease the tax burden on the poor but that's hardly a radical idea. We've been doing that since the 1860's.

DanS is offline DanS
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 20:37 Visit DanS's homepage!
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That's funny. Two years ago, the BBC itself described the EPI as a "liberal think tank."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2331577.stm

How did it all of the sudden morph into the center-right think tank that you're describing?

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 20:42
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It's true the EPI has been very critical of Bush's budgets and of his tax policy. The EPI wanted to cut payroll taxes instead of capital gains taxes and it was for much smaller tax cuts which would have still left the budget balanced. Naturally, I can see how people would think such a stance made them a Democratic running dog lacky but there platform is pretty conservative over all.

They are mainly deficit hawks and they love to expose waste in the government or huge prok barrel projects. That's a good thing though.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Jun 2000
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 20:43 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Never understimate the role of stupidity and greed in determining world history. The GOP is partying on the Titanic. Their hubris will bring down the whole country.

The solution? Revolution!

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 20:51
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DanS is just confused... because America has moved so far to the right, a non-partisan group like the EPI seems like a liberal group.

Plus, that group has more Nobel lauriates than you can shake a stick at. I'll trust them over some Bushophile on a video game site any day.

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
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Jan 2000
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 21:03
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
That's funny. Two years ago, the BBC itself described the EPI as a "liberal think tank."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2331577.stm

How did it all of the sudden morph into the center-right think tank that you're describing?


Are you sure they're using the US definition of "liberal" as opposed to the European one, which is more along the lines of US term "libertarian"?

Starchild is offline Starchild
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
That's funny. Two years ago, the BBC itself described the EPI as a "liberal think tank."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2331577.stm

How did it all of the sudden morph into the center-right think tank that you're describing?


What definition of liberal where they using? The American one that would more accurately be labeled social democrat in Europe or the European one that does describe a belief in low taxes and minimum subsidies. The article you linked to talks about tax cuts, reining in government spending, and sensible spending on education and healthcare, all centire-right positions in the UK.

DanS is offline DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 21:38 Visit DanS's homepage!
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quote:
What definition of liberal where they using?


The American definition. Gephardt, the scion of labor, wouldn't give a speech to a "liberal" organization in the European sense.

DanS is offline DanS
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 21:39 Visit DanS's homepage!
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quote:
It's true the EPI has been very critical of Bush's budgets and of his tax policy.


DanS translation: They're partisan hacks.

MikeH is offline MikeH
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Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 21:42 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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Saying that this is partizan is just blinkered. This massive deficit is going to be a huge problem. Still. Not my country, thank goodness!

DanS is offline DanS
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 21:44 Visit DanS's homepage!
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quote:
Saying that this is partizan is just blinkered.


You're being naive. This organization is a front for the liberal wing of the democratic party. A wolf in sheep's clothing.

MikeH is offline MikeH
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May 1999
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 21:46 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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That's irrelevant. They are highlighting a real issue. If you ignore them for being 'partizan' you obviously have to ignore any Republican comments on the issue as 'partizan' too and work out the implications for yourself.

If you come to the conclusion it's not a problem then... er... well you won't.

JimmyCracksCorn is offline JimmyCracksCorn
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 21:48
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DanS, is there anything about this administration you're even slightly disappointed about? Even one thing?

GePap is offline GePap
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Nov 2001
time: 23:24
  Old Post 14-02-2005 21:49
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Bush's record deficits: 400 billion dollars
Amount of debt accumulated by this admin: 2 Trillion dollars

Watching DanS finish his transformation to complete admin. syncopant: priceless.

DanS is offline DanS
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 21:54 Visit DanS's homepage!
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quote:
They are highlighting a real issue.


With these histrionics...

"Shock therapy"
"cuts are gratuitous"
"train wreck"
"trigger"
"warning sign"
"sinking"
"public outcry"
"angry farmers"
"rash"
"disappear"
"brute force"
"blind allegiance"
"fixate"
"restore some fairness"
"destroying the budget"

This is just tabloid crap.

DanS is offline DanS
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 21:55 Visit DanS's homepage!
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quote:
DanS, is there anything about this administration you're even slightly disappointed about? Even one thing?


Of course. Bush spent too much money. This needs to be remedied and can be remedied.

Zkribbler is offline Zkribbler
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Los Angeles, CA, USA
Feb 1999
time: 21:24
  Old Post 14-02-2005 22:01
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And don't forget Zkribbler's First Law of Taxation:

quote:
Taxes are not set by tax rates, but by spending rates.


Borrowing $400,000/year does not get rids of taxes --- it merely propels them into the future to be paid (with interest) by our children and grandchildren. A generation after Reagan's Presidency, we still haven't paid off his borrowing.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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Apr 2001
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 22:55
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CBO predicts that the unemployment rate remains constant at 5.2 % through 2006. it seems that they believe that 5.2% is the natural rate of unemployment.
using Okuns law, they also estimate that real GDP growth during the next two years (up to 2007) will only close the output gap, and that new growth in the economy will not start again till after 2008 (where they predict real gdp = potential.) of course, stronger then expected productivity growth might delay the bridging of the gap

output gap is the difference between potential and real gdp, where all resources are not being used.

Cruddy is offline Cruddy
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Mar 2003
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 23:06 Visit Cruddy's homepage!
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Last speech I heard by Al Greenspan said something similar - paraphrased as "either stop spending or raise taxes".

Amazed nobody picked up on it at the time - this was maybe a fortnight ago?

Whoha is offline Whoha
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The TOC is supposed to be classified guys...
Dec 2001
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 23:28
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Bush doesn't want to be the big evil badguy that will be reviled throughout history as the guy that raised taxes and did massive( 30% minimum) cuts in every program across the board.

The congress doesn't want to be reviled in that manner either. I can see only one solution: Make me Dictator for a period of 10 years

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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Apr 2001
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 23:45
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total supplemental defense spending has been $200 billion since 9/11. of that, about 11 billion per year has gone to afghanistan, and over $100 billion to iraq.

no war in iraq because iraq posed no threat to america (its called the dept of DEFENSE for a reason) and we've got $100+ billion still in the bank.

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 23:53
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In DanS's world...

If you criticize the admin, you're a partisan hack.

That's called an ad hominem fallacy, DanS. You have no relevant or factual points to make. You don't even attempt to defend the Bush adminstration. You don't make an argument.

In other words... YOU PROVIDE NOTHING, YOU CRIMINAL.

I provide nothing, but at least I don't pretend to.

BTW, Oerdin

Odin is offline Odin
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Sep 2000
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  Old Post 14-02-2005 23:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Whoha
Bush doesn't want to be the big evil badguy that will be reviled throughout history as the guy that raised taxes and did massive( 30% minimum) cuts in every program across the board.

The congress doesn't want to be reviled in that manner either.



Exactly, Taxes must be raised, but if you tell ignorant Joe American the truth about the need to raise taxes you'll be like Mondale in '84.

People want thier government programs but don't want to pay for them because TEH REAGAN SAID TAXES ARE TEH EVIL AND THE REAGAN IS NEVER WRONG!!!

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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Apr 2001
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  Old Post 15-02-2005 00:05
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the CBO estimated that gross federal deficit will continue to grow through 2015, and thats only cuz they only forecast 10 years in advance.

the rates of growth are

04-05: 7.6%
05-06: 6.8%
06-07: 6.3%
07-08: 5.9%
08-09: 5.6%
09-10: 5.3%
10-11: 4.2%
11-12: 3.0%
12-13: 2.9%
13-14: 2.7%
14-15: 2.5%

these numbers do not include non discretionary spending (war, homeland security) and are lkely to go up.

i didnt know how bad this was until i crunched the numbers. GDP wise, the deficit will not go down until 2011- 2012 (assuming 3.5% annual growth)

bush is such an idiot that anyone who still supports him is an ignorant anti-intellectual dinosaur who relies on 'what they feel' rather than facts and would rather stick their heads in the sand and shout 'they think they are better than us' then actually learn anything new.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Mar 2003
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Re: Bush's deficits and the coming crunch. Put an end to popups!

quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
It is a truly informative & objective read


Read Oerdin agrees with it.

DanS is offline DanS
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quote:
the CBO estimated that gross federal deficit will continue to grow through 2015


I note that CBO's forecast last year at this time for FY '04 was for a deficit of $477 billion. It ended up at $412 billion, 14% less than forecast.

There is substantial uncertainty in CBO's figures.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
The BBCCurrently the US public doesn't have enough capital to cover the government's reckless borrowing so countries like Japan & China have had to finance it.


Since interest rates aren't going up much I'd say they have this wrong.

No one should take this that I support Bush fiscal policy of course. I just get sick of everything being about the deficit and especially about the debt. We should be talking about where the money goes. That's the real problem.

 
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