14-02-2005 23:03									#1
	3850BC Turn Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Map is below.

Input required on:

1. Gunther

2. Cain

3. Plains of Ashur City build. Do we want to switch to a pre-build (say temple) and then with Pottery in five go to a granary. A worker can be cutting a forest tile to assist. Or should we prooduce a warrior.

4. BW2 I think should irrigate - which will get the job done next turn. One worker can then stay and road and the other moves on.

Some other things to think about.

Goody hut to the north - do we use a warrior or settler to pop it?

Looks like coastline to the south of Gunther. The Capital's location looks like it should be OK.

Attachment: bab3900bc.jpg
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	14-02-2005 23:05									#2
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Babylon city pic:

Attachment: bab3900bcbabylon.jpg
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	14-02-2005 23:05									#3
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Inanna's Throne

Attachment: bab3900bcinannasthrone.jpg
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	14-02-2005 23:06									#4
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Plains of Ashur

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	14-02-2005 23:11									#5
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And on emore question... How comfortable are folks with our two warriors getting this far from our cities already. I raise it because of my early exit from the PTW Classics game. I had to move my capitol about 3 tiles, and before I could get a warrior prouduced, a neighbour was there to snuff out my early existence.

I'm trying to recall if the other civs all started with normal (as in 1mp) warriors.

	14-02-2005 23:17									#6
	Re: 3850BC Turn Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Beta 1. Gunther

I'd say E/6

quote: Originally posted by Beta 2. Cain

Map runs off the edge of the screen, but it looks like we should go W and then N. We could go S if we want to explore in that direction, but I think we should head away from the edge of the map and try to find other civs.

quote: Originally posted by Beta 3. Plains of Ashur City build. Do we want to switch to a pre-build (say temple) and then with Pottery in five go to a granary. A worker can be cutting a forest tile to assist. Or should we prooduce a warrior.

I'd say warrior. Warmongering teams could use the multi-pop-unit-start to build quite a warrior rush in the early game. We need at least some defenses, and we need to take advantange of our early-game production too in order to get out more scouting units than we normally could.

quote: Originally posted by Beta 4. BW2 I think should irrigate - which will get the job done next turn. One worker can then stay and road and the other moves on.

I'm not sure of the numbers, but if that means that in 3850 BC the workers will say "2 turns till" that sounds perfect for 7-turn growth.

Otherwise, it might work out where roading earlier would be better for an extra commerce or two.

quote: Originally posted by Beta Goody hut to the north - do we use a warrior or settler to pop it?

A city founding would be best since that rules out barbs. However, I don't see us settling up there anytime soon. We should probably do it with a warrior, as soon as we can have a warrior stationed in Plains of Ashur at the same time another is popping the hut.

	14-02-2005 23:18									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Beta And on emore question... How comfortable are folks with our two warriors getting this far from our cities already. I raise it because of my early exit from the PTW Classics game. I had to move my capitol about 3 tiles, and before I could get a warrior prouduced, a neighbour was there to snuff out my early existence.

In this case we only moved our capitol a little bit.

I'm fine so long as the coming batch of warriors fortify in their home cities.

	14-02-2005 23:36									#8
	Re: Re: 3850BC Turn Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I'm not sure of the numbers, but if that means that in 3850 BC the workers will say "2 turns till" that sounds perfect for 7-turn growth. Otherwise, it might work out where roading earlier would be better for an extra commerce or two.

The first worker moved there on turn 1, ie 4000bc. So he has been irrigating for 3950 and 3900. Which means that two workers irrigating for one more turn - the next turn - should complete the job.

Thanks for the other input. Good points.

	14-02-2005 23:41									#9
	Re: Re: 3850BC Turn Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep A city founding would be best since that rules out barbs. However, I don't see us settling up there anytime soon. We should probably do it with a warrior, as soon as we can have a warrior stationed in Plains of Ashur at the same time another is popping the hut.

And you don't think it is worth pushing a city up there in the short term?

To my team mates - this is where you have to drag me to the ground kicking and screaming. I have one huge vice in civ3, and that is that I often get overly ambitious with the geographic expansion early, instead of concentrating on building a solid core. It doomed us (Vox) in the ptwdg1. So, whenever I come up with silly ideas for going out that extra 3 or 4 tiles to build a city before we have the basics down, it is somebody's job to give me a slap up the side of the head.

Thanks.

	15-02-2005 01:20									#10
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We need to secure that area with warriors. If we do not meet any close by civ, we can pop the hut by founding a city. Otherwise, we need to use a warrior.

What are our demographics after the city builds? #1 in pop, I presume?

	15-02-2005 02:15									#11
	Re: Re: Re: 3850BC Turn Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Beta And you don't think it is worth pushing a city up there in the short term?

* Kloreep slaps Beta up the side of the head.

There.

Seriously, I don't. We can already see good land to the east, semi-good land (good with some workers to mine it) to our west. And who knows what we'll find in the south once we get a warrior down there. There's plenty of core space to fill yet.

	15-02-2005 02:26									#12
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I think all three cities should first build 1 warrior for defense.

Proposed move of western warrior : South onto the hill. Need to verify southern city locations and also not get too far from our home lands.

Proposed move of eastern warrior : East onto the mountain.

Proposed Future City sites:

1. Babylon 4-4-7 (Grassland no-sheild river next to at least 1 shield grassland + 2 forest) This is a replacement for Y-4

2. Babylon 6-6-3 (Tobacco; assuming Tobacco icon not covering up a shield.) We would get that commerce bonus imedately. Very productive area.

3. Babylon 1-1-1 or 1-1-1-1 [area needs explored]

4. Babylon 3-2-[3/2]? [area needs explored]

5. Plains of Ashur 8-7-(either 8/7) can't tell which of these two tiles is better yet, but it's another good city location.

	15-02-2005 02:42									#13
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I'd be okay with moving the western warrior south, and then either returning it home or scouting the southern area of our core. It just depends on whether we want to send it out for long-range exploration, and I don't think there's a wrong answer between the two options.

On city locations: I suggest a city 7-7-7 of Babylon by the time Plains of Ashur builds a granary (which I think we'll want to do) so that the cattle can be shared.

	15-02-2005 02:48									#14
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I think the warriors are about as far away as we want them until the first new warriors come in line and there's plenty of terrign nearby to explore.

I was thinking for the next few cities on the western one south and then explore counter-clockwise leaving no holes and for the eastern one explore the mountain and the explore counter clockwise leaving no holes.

	15-02-2005 02:50									#15
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Proposed build queues:

Babylon : Warrior, Granery, Settler, Warrior

Plains of Ashur: Warrior, Granery, Settler, Warrior

Inanna's Throne: Warrior, Worker, Baracks, Bowmen

Graneries to be helped along via forest chops.

	15-02-2005 03:18									#16
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I don't mind where our warriors are now, but we need to wait for new warrior builds to secure our cities before getting too far away from the core.

	15-02-2005 03:35									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I like Joncnunn's plan. I don't think the warriors being far away matters, we will get some for defence very soon.

	15-02-2005 04:00									#18
	Re: Re: Re: Re: 3850BC Turn Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep * Kloreep slaps Beta up the side of the head.

Thanks - I needed that.

	15-02-2005 04:05									#19
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster What are our demographics after the city builds? #1 in pop, I presume?

Yup - number 1 in pop and land area. #2 in GNP and mfd goods.

	15-02-2005 04:11									#20
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I was thinking for the next few cities on the western one south and then explore counter-clockwise leaving no holes and for the eastern one explore the mountain and the explore counter clockwise leaving no holes. Proposed build queues: Babylon : Warrior, Granery, Settler, Warrior Plains of Ashur: Warrior, Granery, Settler, Warrior Inanna's Throne: Warrior, Worker, Baracks, Bowmen Graneries to be helped along via forest chops.

As with GameCube, I like these plans and the proposed builds. I will be curious to see how sonn we need additional workers. But the two granaries should help there.

	15-02-2005 06:39									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Plans

Beta, donīt expect that slap from me, I am just the same when it comes to early expansion. I guess thatīs an old SinglePlayer habit not wearing out...

	15-02-2005 07:19									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Micha Plans Beta, donīt expect that slap from me, I am just the same when it comes to early expansion. I guess thatīs an old SinglePlayer habit not wearing out...

I know what you mean. It is hard to shake - but against human competition, where the playing field is much more level, it can be suicide.

Lux Invicta I believe also fell victim to an early expansion plan in the first ptwdg.

	15-02-2005 08:24									#23
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Just got a look at the save. I think you guys have it all covered. I especially like the suggestion of placing the new city that it can "share" the cow. It's nice little technique to maximize production between two cities.

I also suffer from expanding too quickly -- it's just irresistible...I always expect to find some ridiculous combination of luxuries and resource tiles just beyond the next hill

	15-02-2005 09:02									#24
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I like joncnunn's plan in principle, but I'm still holding out hope for more food sources to our south.

So, come to think of it, we should definitely send the western warrior back around our south, to make sure there aren't any better sites before we commit to the two granaries in +2 and +3 fpt cities respectively.

	15-02-2005 16:18									#25
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Time for me to put in my 2 eurocents:

First, you're right that Lux Invicta went down much too early due to a too rapid expansion. That, and being next to some very aggressive (yet honest) Germans.
We tried to secure an iron source that was halfway between Lux and Germany by planting a city there. They were ... let's say ... not amused. Especially since diplomatic relations were a bit rusty.
We also suffered production-wise, since that city was only producing one shield per turn because of corruption.

Lux had a very mediocre start. I think our start is much better, so we can try for a more 'core-oriented' approach.

Now, on to the city plan. I like Joncnunn's plan very much, and have put it in a picture. For some cities, alternative sites are depicted in the same colour.

I have added one possible city site (the grey one in the NW).

Of course, this can't be a definite plan since the next swamp may be just around the corner

We are already sharing the Cow between Inanna's Throne and Plains of Ashur - I'm not in favour of having a city NW-NW-NW of Babylon just to split that poor Cow in three pieces...

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Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 15-02-2005 at 16:32

	15-02-2005 16:30									#26
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Now - the question is: which city goes first? There are several good options:

• If we encounter a nearby civ to the north, we should consider the Magenta site (N-NW-NW or N-N-NW of Plains of Ashur) to go first. Why? Well, we'll be expanding towards that neighbour, and we can pop that hut safely by settling next to it. It is also on the river, and will have access to that nice sugar tile, which we should improve (mine) quite soon.
  A drawback is, of course, that the city will suffer some corruption.
  
• The Yellow site seems to have the best land available. Two tobacco, one sugar, and one bonus grassland. I'm not sure, but it might even be on the coast, so we have the option of building a boat (as soon as we acquire Alphabet) from there. It can also be connected with a 3-tile road to both Babylon and Inanna's Throne.
  A drawback is that it is not on a river.
  
• The Red site is nicely on those rivers. It has two bonus grasslands (that is a bonus marker under our warrior, isn't it?). The tobacco is a nice bonus, but won't be within our borders right away.
  

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 17-02-2005 at 13:12

	15-02-2005 16:49									#27
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The next big decision is the movement of our warriors. I think the following aspects are to be considered in this decision:

1. Warriors should uncover land to build our cities on;
   
2. Warriors should make contact with other civs;
   
3. Warriors should discover goody huts before others do, and claim land in the name of Innana;
   

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	15-02-2005 17:51									#28
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Therefore, we should claim a stake to any land between us and others as soon as possible. It's most likely our neighbours will be located in the lands to our north (actually, somewhere between NW and NE).

That would make the magenta city site more immediately important. Big plus that it's on a river.

Nice descriptions BFM

	15-02-2005 20:28									#29
	Remove this text

Looking at BFM's exploration pattern, it's skipping much of the terrign needed to finalize the southern cities.

Plus sending all three new warriors away in addition to the two existing ones is just asking for our homeland to be annexed by our closest neighbor.

I do like the new gray site, pending exploration.

Humans are much more agressive than the AI before 3000 BC when presented with an oppertunity for a cheap annexation.

	15-02-2005 20:34									#30
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The idea is also to intercept any incoming warriors!

We're not skipping the southern terrain. We're delaying the exploration of it for a few turns. Even then, we won't be settling there for quite some time.