15-02-2005 03:03									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Please site where the SCOTUS has said unlawful combatants are entitled to the same protections as citizens.

You also ain't as bad as Saddam, which you can be proud of! Think about it, you could rip off their fingernails and stick hot irons up their ass, but you don't!

Instead you send them to places where the authorities will do that! Hold you head up in pride, Oerdin!

	15-02-2005 03:07									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar What I find interesting is how America is attempting to justify this. "WELL, TECHNICALLY HE DOESNT GET ANY RIGHTS BY ANY TREATY OR DOCUMENT LOL!!!1". Of course, if Americans were as gung-ho about freedom and justice as they pretend to be, then they would offer the protections anyway.

Tassador, I'd like to offer the same protections to terrorists as citizens but the truth is we are in an on going war and many of these people have provided intelligence which ahs lead to the capture of Al Qaeda terrorists. Would they be as willing to talk if they were lawyered up? Legally, we have furfilled the letter of the law and these terrorists have recieved far more favorable treatment then the Soviets gave Afghan "freedom fighters" (or terrorists if you please) or then the Russian government has given Chechens or the Chinese have given their muslim rebels.

Prison for the duration of hostilities is pretty generous compared to the other legal option of summary execution. Would you prefer they were simply shot?

	15-02-2005 03:09									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko You also ain't as bad as Saddam, which you can be proud of!

Saddam, as a former head of state is entitled to Prisoner of War status unlike unlawful combatants. Please site any example of prisoners have irons stuck up their ass if you can. Oh, I see you are once again full of ****. Silly me.

	15-02-2005 03:18									#34
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quote: The reason Cuban courts don't get a say is because the US doesn't recognize nor does it maintain diplomatic relations with the Communist government of Cuba. Granted military courts have always had rule there since the US military took charge of Gitmo but legally it is not the US nor even a US territory and instead is a Cuban territory which the US is authorised to use.

Isn't that pretty contradictory? We don't recognize the Communist goverment, but they Commies really own the land, and the US is just leasing it. Therefore, it isn't really US land? Also, I was incorrect, it is a PERPETUAL lease, and Cuba denies the legality of the lease, saying it violated the Law of Treaties, because it was procured by force.

If the Cubans retained soveriegnty, then they should be allowed to kick the tenants off and pay damages.

It is interesting, the US wrote it as the Cubans having soveriengty (although that seemingly means nothing), but the US having sole control and jurisdiction over the base.

A perpetual lease, with the US having sole control and jurisidction... hmmm... sounds like US soil to me.

	15-02-2005 03:24									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Saddam, as a former head of state is entitled to Prisoner of War status unlike unlawful combatants. Please site any example of prisoners have irons stuck up their ass if you can. Oh, I see you are once again full of ****. Silly me.

Way to miss my point too. You're a true apologist.

	15-02-2005 03:29									#36
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I disagree that the US is just slightly better the the USSR or Russia or China. The Soviets bombed who villages, executed who clans, and really did torture people (not the crap lefties are claim as torture in this case). China as well and the Russians really have just rounded up Chechens and shot everyone. The US hasn't done anything even remotely close to that.

Instead when we found certain obviously guilty people we've seporated them and sent them to prison as unlawful combatants. Lawful combatants have been turned over to the Afghan government.

There is nothing illegal or even remotely illegal about this and instead it fulfills the legal requirements of all international treaties governing warfare.

	15-02-2005 03:31									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko Way to miss my point too. You're a true apologist.

And you are a true idiot but we've known this for months. I doubt you could even site a case where Americans have riped out anyone's finger nails. You're just another exicted teenager talking out of your ass.

	15-02-2005 03:32									#38
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Yes, tell yourself that. Also, if you practice long enough, eventually you'll be able to put on a convincing show of "But I Didn't Know, How Could I Have Known".

	15-02-2005 03:33									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist che was responding to the claim Guantánamo isn't American soil.

Actually no. SCOTUS just recently said that the gits in Gitmo are entitled to legal protection under our constitution. We can't torture them or hold them indefinately and the have a right to a trial.

	15-02-2005 03:35									#40
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually no. SCOTUS just recently said that the gits in Gitmo are entitled to legal protection under our constitution. We can't torture them or hold them indefinately and the have a right to a trial.

I'm against all forms of torture and have been since the beginning though I want to make sure the definition of torture is exact enough that it doesn't cover everything under the sun. Can you please provide a link to the SCOTUS ruling as I'd like to read it further?

	15-02-2005 03:43									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko Yes, tell yourself that. Also, if you practice long enough, eventually you'll be able to put on a convincing show of "But I Didn't Know, How Could I Have Known".

I'm not really interested in reasoning with you. I've watched your posts for a while and they can only be described as pathologically anti-American. If the US said the sky way blue you'd argue that it was purple just out of spite. You would never give the US a fair shake in any case or under any circumstances. Therefore no one feels bad about your continuing bellyaching.

	15-02-2005 04:05									#42
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quote: Can you please provide a link to the SCOTUS ruling as I'd like to read it further?

Rasul v. Bush says Gitmo prisoners can challenge their standing. The Court, in its opinion, refered to the fact that US has complete jurisdiction and control over Gitmo and the prisioners have never been tried, not even in a foriegn court (distinguished from Eisentrager).

It was part of the series of cases which included the more famous Hamdi v. Rumsfeld. Rasul dealt with those at Gitmo (Hamdi was in South Carolina, IIRC).

	15-02-2005 04:05									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'm not really interested in reasoning with you. I've watched your posts for a while and they can only be described as pathologically anti-American. If the US said the sky way blue you'd argue that it was purple just out of spite. You would never give the US a fair shake in any case or under any circumstances. Therefore no one feels bad about your continuing bellyaching.

I know. I can dish it out but I couldn't handle being tinkled on!

	15-02-2005 04:07									#44
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quote: though I want to make sure the definition of torture is exact enough that it doesn't cover everything under the sun

And what if the law of the US isn't 'exact enough'? Will you ignore the law?

	15-02-2005 04:17									#45
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This one seems pretty simple-- If there is clearcut evidence, try him and hold him.


The more difficult scenario are the folks that you are "pretty sure" are terrorist but you don't have enough evidence for anywhere near "beyond reasonable doubt"-- Then you have competing interests of trying to protect your populace with the interest of not incarcerating innocent people for no reason.

In regular domestic situations we let the worst scummy gangbanger and drug lords go free if we don't have enough evidence. Sometimes I don't like that result but compared with the possibility of the state determining who to jail without any evidentary requirements I'll live with that result.

With terrorists, the result of making such a call could be hundreds or thousands dead . .. so jailing people without trial or hearing seems seductive, almost palatable. But it shouldn't be.

What all this highlights is the inadequacy of a court or criminal justice system to deal with what will likely be an ongoing, almost perpetual "state of war". These systems are not designed to deal with the likes of terrorism. I just don't know what model would work better

	15-02-2005 04:28									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber This one seems pretty simple-- If there is clearcut evidence, try him and hold him. The more difficult scenario are the folks that you are "pretty sure" are terrorist but you don't have enough evidence for anywhere near "beyond reasonable doubt"-- Then you have competing interests of trying to protect your populace with the interest of not incarcerating innocent people for no reason. In regular domestic situations we let the worst scummy gangbanger and drug lords go free if we don't have enough evidence. Sometimes I don't like that result but compared with the possibility of the state determining who to jail without any evidentary requirements I'll live with that result. With terrorists, the result of making such a call could be hundreds or thousands dead . .. so jailing people without trial or hearing seems seductive, almost palatable. But it shouldn't be. What all this highlights is the inadequacy of a court or criminal justice system to deal with what will likely be an ongoing, almost perpetual "state of war". These systems are not designed to deal with the likes of terrorism. I just don't know what model would work better

I wonder if this sort of ambiguity could at least be confined soley to gitmo and if the population of prisoners who could be held in this manner in gitmo could be capped somehow. At least then the government would need to onl single out the most dangerous cases for such incarceration.

As things currently stands it seems they can jail as many as they like in this way and don't seem to have the slightest incentive to ever go the route of a formal trial ample evidence or no

	15-02-2005 04:34									#47
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Ok, let me get this straight according to Oerdins rather narrow interpetation of an unlawful combatant it seems evident that the foreigners who traveled to Spain during the civil war to fight fascists were unlawful combatants as well. The same applies to foreigners working in the French resistance, or foreigners fighting woth Greek or Italian partisans. What makes this interesting is that he and the US. government seems to equal unlawful combatant with terrorits, of course this is excatly the name the nazis and fascists used from the partisans as well.

What makes Oerdins interpretation even more interesting is that it makes the american and foreign private "security personnel" ie mercs unlawful combatants/terrorists as well. So its fair to say that the Americans are working and using more terrorists than any other country in the world. People form a nation, nations form in most cases states, states create armies, armies out sourcing creates mercs, mercs are terrorists. In Afghanistan the nation out sourced fighting to terrorists. In America its the state who out sources to mercs.

	15-02-2005 04:38									#48
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That's a very interesting argument with mercenaries. Can they be said to be a part of a country's armed forces (do they have a distinctive sign and do they carry their arms openly)? A case can be made for no. Never considered that.

	15-02-2005 04:42									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui That's a very interesting argument with mercenaries. Can they be said to be a part of a country's armed forces (do they have a distinctive sign and do they carry their arms openly)? A case can be made for no. Never considered that.

In the Abu Ghraib case, the military said it has no jurisdiction over military intelligence contractors who might have been involved, so...

	15-02-2005 04:48									#50
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so, lets have UN build their own GITMO in Siberia to put the "military contrators" it captures and held them there for AT LEAST 4 years without trial or toilet paper!

	15-02-2005 05:10									#51
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Well, it is St. Valentine's day and I'm off to romance my lady friend. You celibant males can feel free to continuing whining about US foreign policy. I'll respond later.

	15-02-2005 05:21									#52
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He seems to have realised how pwned he is in these arguments. So he escapes the reality to paid love.

	15-02-2005 05:30									#53
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Yep and your one line replies arent really helping it much to get back on track. I said what I thought earlier and hope to have brought something new to the discussion, maybe you would like to comment it?

	15-02-2005 07:31									#54
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SCROTUM

	15-02-2005 08:03									#56
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quote: Uh, no one should be abused that way no matter how much you don't like them and no matter what mistakes they have made. They are human, they were born human, and they will remain human forever. When you degrade a fellow human, you degrade me and you degrade yourself.

Let's see. He threw a grenade at an unarmed medic, and killed him.

You are right that it is wrong to degrade a person, just as it is wrong to kill an unarmed man, regardless of the circumstances.

If the Canadian police were to shoot an unarmed suspect you'd be calling for him to be drawn and quartered? Where's the outrage here? Why shouldn't this man be punished for killing another person?

As for abuse, if pissing on himself is the worse that has been done to him, he should be thankful.

	15-02-2005 08:04									#57
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quote: Well, it is St. Valentine's day and I'm off to romance my lady friend. You celibant males can feel free to continuing whining about US foreign policy. I'll respond later.

And here I thought we were on the same side.

	15-02-2005 08:31									#58
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quote: Poor baby. You can throw grenades at Americans, but you can't take tinkling on yourself? Aww. We feel so bad.

Put him on a mini bike near Aspen in January and that would feel rather good.

Sounds like a real winner there, but then again I stopped believing the government and Fox a while back.
But if the Canadians think he's a rat hole I'd almost consider that corroboration.

	15-02-2005 13:32									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Let's see. He threw a grenade at an unarmed medic, and killed him.

The article quoted by the OP does not say the medic was unarmed. In fact, combat medics carry sidearms.

	15-02-2005 14:23									#60
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quote: There is no doubt that a terrorist is precisely what he is.

That is the part where I stopped reading.