15-02-2005 16:45									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Armed soldiers on the battle field who do not wear recognizable military uniforms are unlawful combatants who are explicitly striped of all protections under the Geneva and Hague Conventions. He was armed, he was a combatant, he murdered medical personnel who were fulfilling their duty to care for the sick and injured, and he was not in a military uniform. This case is open and shut. Under the Geneva Convention he could have legally been lined up against a wall and shot. Instead he has been given prison until the end of hostilities and that's pretty damn generous.

Yeah, you keep coming back with that, and you've been shown that it's not as simple. So yeah, keep trying.

	15-02-2005 16:49									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There is nothing illegal or even remotely illegal about this and instead it fulfills the legal requirements of all international treaties governing warfare.

It doesn't, unless you still hold that idea that the Geneva convention overrides further treaties meant to extend it.

	15-02-2005 19:03									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar quote: Where's the outrage here? I expect everyone in this thread to state how outraged they are or Tar and Featherings(tm) will result. Thank you. The LORD'S Department of Morality

I'm outraged this hasn't made it to reality TV yet.

	15-02-2005 19:26									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Let's see. He threw a grenade at an unarmed medic, and killed him.

Did he? Evidence? Do you still believe the US government and what it says?

quote: You are right that it is wrong to degrade a person, just as it is wrong to kill an unarmed man, regardless of the circumstances.

And it is wrong for a "free and fair" nation to deny fundamental justice.

quote: If the Canadian police were to shoot an unarmed suspect you'd be calling for him to be drawn and quartered?

Not necessarily - I would want some FACTS first.

quote: Where's the outrage here? Why shouldn't this man be punished for killing another person?

If he did it, yes.

quote: As for abuse, if pissing on himself is the worse that has been done to him, he should be thankful.

I don't believe this is your moral compass Ben.

	15-02-2005 19:49									#65
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Oerdin is correct as far as non-uniformed combatants being delcared illegal- the problem there thought is what that means- I doubt just simply not having a uniform means you can get shot-thats sort of silly (most international volunteers in the Spanish Civil War were formed into recognized bridgades and uniformed)- basing law on clothing styles.

I view it as whether one is fighting as part of the recognized armed forces of one combatant side or another, or if one is fighting in a method or for a group outside of the recognized combatant forces of one side or another. Hence individual partisan bands can, if caught, be shot.

If the kid was fighting for the Taliban forces then I think he should fall under the protection of a prisoner of war: the Taliban did not uniform its men- so what, that is not really the point- they were the regime in power (even if only 3 states had diplomatic relations- we still acknowledged them when we gave them money to fight heroin and demanded they turn Osama over) and henxce people fighting in their forces are soldiers of the regime and should be thus treated. If he was fighting for an AQ band, then he woluld not fall unde the protections for POWs.

If he is a POW, then you can try him for war crimes (killing unarmed and marked medical personel).

	15-02-2005 20:11									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker SCROTUM

A low ranking wrinkled old retainer of the family ?

	15-02-2005 20:29									#67
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The man's not a spy according to the "Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol 1)
Adopted on 8 June 1977 by the Diplomatic Conference on the Reaffirmation and Development of
International Humanitarian Law applicable in Armed Conflicts
entry into force 7 December 1979, in accordance with Article 95" instead he is a mercenary, as under article 47 2 (b), he does in fact take part in hostilities and under article 47 2 (d), he is neither a national of a party to the conflict nor a resident of a party to the conflict. Under Article 47 1, he has no rights to be treated as a 'combatant' or a 'prisoner of war'.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/93.htm

	15-02-2005 20:41									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And here I thought we were on the same side.

I'm sorry. It was an immature little quip which I couldn't resist.

	15-02-2005 20:43									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Yeah, you keep coming back with that, and you've been shown that it's not as simple. So yeah, keep trying.

You keep claiming it is not but have yet to show why. I've quoted the relavent parts of the GC numerous times.

	15-02-2005 21:20									#70
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quote: Originally posted by vodkakov The man's not a spy according to the "Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol 1) Adopted on 8 June 1977 by the Diplomatic Conference on the Reaffirmation and Development of International Humanitarian Law applicable in Armed Conflicts entry into force 7 December 1979, in accordance with Article 95" instead he is a mercenary, as under article 47 2 (b), he does in fact take part in hostilities and under article 47 2 (d), he is neither a national of a party to the conflict nor a resident of a party to the conflict. Under Article 47 1, he has no rights to be treated as a 'combatant' or a 'prisoner of war'. http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/93.htm

He had Afghan citizenship so he was a citizen of a party in the conflict. He was armed. He was not in uniform. So that text doesn't apply to this man.

Gepap may have a point about the Taliban foot soldiers not being given uniforms. In an open and shut case like this I think Gepap's suggestion should be followed just because it's a slam dunk and it would make us look better among the moderates.

	15-02-2005 21:45									#71
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Oh, he had citizenship... I didn't realise that. In which case Article 43 is the important one...

"Article 43.-Armed forces
1. The armed forces of a Party to a conflict consist of all organized armed forces, groups and units which are under a command responsible to that Party for the conduct of its subordinates, even if that Party is represented by a government or an authority not recognized by an adverse Party. Such armed forces shall be subject to an internal disciplinary system which, inter alia, shall enforce compliance with the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict.
2. Members of the armed forces of a Party to a conflict (other than medical personnel and chaplains covered by Article 33 of the Third Convention) are combatants, that is to say, they have the right to participate directly in hostilities.

3. Whenever a Party to a conflict incorporates a paramilitary or armed law enforcement agency into its armed forces it shall so notify the other Parties to the conflict. "

It's rather ambiguous, as "organized armed forces, groups and units which are under a command responsible to that Party for the conduct of its subordinates" has a lot of scope for interpretation. One would have to prove whether he was a part of an organised group of fighters, which took orders from a higher authority or whether he was just a lone fighter acting out of self-interest (or what-have-you).

The issue of spies is not as clear cut as 'no uniform = spy', instead the person has to actually be engaged in "espionage" as is made clear in article 46 1. It seems that as he was engaging in direct hostilities, he's not a spy.

	15-02-2005 21:54									#72
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I still don't see what harm could come from declaring him a PoW and trying him for warcrimes.

	15-02-2005 21:57									#73
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I'm not arguing against that, just that he's a spy and how people seem to be using the GC without actually citing any articles (of the convention) to back it up.

Last edited by vodkakov on 15-02-2005 at 22:23

	15-02-2005 22:36									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You keep claiming it is not but have yet to show why. I've quoted the relavent parts of the GC numerous times.

No, the stupid part of it is claiming that the Geneva convention OVERRIDES further conventions meant to ENHANCE the protection it already offers.

The GC doesn't say that belligerents have an inaleniable right to torture, it only positively defines a certain category of combattants and how they should be treated.

In other words, according to you, it can NEVER be legal to enhance the protections offered by the GC. Yeah, suuuure. Why don't you send a letter to the US diplomacy telling them how they have been fooled in signing further conventions?

	16-02-2005 00:03									#75
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Also, IIRC, the 4th Geneva Convention applies to all combatants (legal and not) and mandates humane treatement. If this guy was subject to the same conditions as those at Abu Ghraib, it can easily be said that the US violated the 4th Geneva Convention.

	16-02-2005 01:44									#76
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This article makes me want to cheer for the so called terrorists.

	16-02-2005 11:28									#77
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That comment makes me want to fart in your general direction.

	16-02-2005 11:31									#78
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I'd like to see an article from another source before making a judgement in this case.

There are some real dumbasses at Guantanamo, but there are also some innocent people there as well.

But even if this guy was a dumbass, and if he is being tortured, it's just not practical, and also why take the political risk anyway of doing it to him when the "return on investment" isn't going to be that high, meanwhile the political damage can be great.

	16-02-2005 11:42									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow That comment makes me want to fart in your general direction.

What's stopping you?

	16-02-2005 11:51									#80
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Straybow uses Gas-X

Attachment: gasx.jpg
This has been downloaded 34 time(s).

	16-02-2005 18:17									#81
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The main reason for denying PoW status to people we capture especially on the battlefield in Afghanistan is to allow yourself to legally interrogate people. I and most sane people shouldn't really have a problem with that. However, the situation described in the OP doesn't really further those goals and I fail to see hpw anyone can defend it on even an emotional level.

	16-02-2005 18:28									#82
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I fail to see how those people 3-4 years after being captured really know anything worth iterrogating them about anymore?

	16-02-2005 18:31									#83
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I fail to see how anybody takes anything posted by MWHC seriously.

	16-02-2005 18:34									#84
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MWHC?

	16-02-2005 18:36									#85
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I also have managed to lose some of what little respect I had left for BK

	16-02-2005 18:41									#86
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius I fail to see how those people 3-4 years after being captured really know anything worth iterrogating them about anymore?

Who to contact in order to return to their old duties might still be of interest to us.

	16-02-2005 18:48									#87
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And if you havent figured that in 3-4 years..

but then again, maybe you'll figure it out in 30-40 years


not gonna sign up to herald thank you

	16-02-2005 18:50									#88
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I didn't have to sign up. Why would you?

	16-02-2005 18:51									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi As for abuse, if pissing on himself is the worse that has been done to him, he should be thankful.

	16-02-2005 18:53									#90
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I didn't have to sign up. Why would you?

huh? I dunno,maybe cos you live in the US?

They want me to register and sign in...