15-02-2005 12:40									#31
	Re: FemNazis are at it again! Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Competent women never find excuses. They go and win.

Isn't that a tautology?

	15-02-2005 12:44									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Japher The fact that a man is more likely to ignore their family and/or go above and beyond SHOULD earn them more pay.

No. A man who ignores his family is just as likely to betray the company when such an opportunity arises.

	15-02-2005 12:46									#33
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Kid, No, I mean, uhh... what I'm saying is, that there are logical reasons why there are situations where there are more men in certain type of jobs. If 70 % of applicants are men adn 30% are women to a job, and later on the scene seems to be male dominant, is that a surprise?

Furthermore, in case of women being pregnant, because men can't be, do you think the employer doesn't want to employ that woman because shes a woman, or because she's pregnant, or because she is going to leave the office SOON for a long time? SO, in this light, it's not oppressing. It's the fact that she'll be away. YEah it's too bad but no one said to have babies, and if they have, well, they understand why this is. It IS a different issue if an employer doesn't want to employ a woman becuase she MIGHT get pregnant in the future. This is different.

	15-02-2005 12:48									#34
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" A man who ignores his family is just as likely to betray the company when such an opportunity arises."

Not necessarily. In fact unlikely if the reason he's been ignoring his family was because of the job and career.

	15-02-2005 13:11									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Furthermore, in case of women being pregnant, because men can't be, do you think the employer doesn't want to employ that woman because shes a woman, or because she's pregnant, or because she is going to leave the office SOON for a long time? SO, in this light, it's not oppressing. It's the fact that she'll be away. YEah it's too bad but no one said to have babies, and if they have, well, they understand why this is. It IS a different issue if an employer doesn't want to employ a woman becuase she MIGHT get pregnant in the future. This is different.

Easy to shrug off this problem until you realize that it's merely being externalized into the inverted population pyramid problem.

	15-02-2005 13:15									#36
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Yeah it is easy. If someone is pregnant, you know. Make a decision. If someone is a woman, then so what, what could happen could would should could would you know it doesnt' even matter anymore just hire the best one, period.

	15-02-2005 13:32									#37
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An interesting article I saw on CNN.com :

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/scienc...rain/index.html

quote: (CNN) -- It's an argument that's as old as it is contentious: that male and female brains work differently. It's also spawned countless self-help books (think "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus") and bland jokes about women being unable to read maps, or men never asking for directions. It's a brave expert who'll chart a course through these controversial waters. But that hasn't stopped Michael Gurian, psychologist and author of "What Could He Be Thinking?". He believes there are about a hundred structural differences that have been identified between the male and female brain. "Men, because we tend to compartmentalize our communication into a smaller part of the brain, we tend to be better at getting right to the issue," he said. "The more female brain (will) gather a lot of material, gather a lot of information, feel a lot, hear a lot, sense a lot," he said. Scientists say males have more activity in mechanical centers of the brain, whereas females show more activity in verbal and emotional centers. The differences can be noticed from early childhood, Gurian said, such as when an adult gives a child a doll. "That doll becomes life-like to that girl, but you give it to a two-year-old boy and you are more likely, not all the time, but you are more likely than not to see that boy try to take the head off the doll," he said. "He thinks spatial-mechanical. He's using the doll as an object". To find out why these differences exist, scientists have taken voyages deep inside the gray matter using MRI scans. The scans show that in most women, the corpus callosum area, which handles communication between the brain's two "hemispheres", is larger. In layman's terms, it means that the two sides of the female brain "talk" better to each other -- which could explain why studies show women tend to multi-task better. On the other hand, the scans show men tend to move information more easily within each hemisphere. It all boils down to genes, according to Dr. Marianne Legato Partnership for Gender Specific Medicine Columbia University. Women are born with two X chromosomes, and men with an X and a Y. "And on that Y chromosome are at least 21 unique genes unique to males which control many of the body's operations down to the level of the cells," Dr Legato said. She also said those genetic differences explain other differences, like why men can drink more alcohol than women without becoming intoxicated. "Women do not have the enzyme in their stomach that degrades alcohol which men have," she said. Unfortunately it doesn't explain why some men leave the toilet seat up, or some women can't take out the garbage. CNN's Elizabeth Cohen contributed to this report.

	15-02-2005 13:36									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka " A man who ignores his family is just as likely to betray the company when such an opportunity arises." Not necessarily. In fact unlikely if the reason he's been ignoring his family was because of the job and career.

Precisely -- that means he cares only about himself.

	15-02-2005 13:53									#39
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False accusation.

	15-02-2005 14:19									#40
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Precisely -- that means he cares only about himself.

Like Einstein?

	15-02-2005 14:36									#41
	Re: Re: FemNazis are at it again! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Isn't that a tautology?

Unless winning and competence are the same thing , that is not a tautology . Success does not assume competence , not vice-versa . In the Soviet Union , the most competent business managers were not necessarily the msot successful . Nor was it that the most successful business managers ( ie , the ones with political pull ) were the most competent .

	15-02-2005 15:05									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident this may be true, but women still make less money than men.

I remember hearing about this in a gender relations class a few years back. The feminazis claimed women only made 70 cents to every dollar a man made and this was proof men keep women down!

When you looked at the methodology you found this was a total lie. Men were better educated on average then women, they had more experience in given fields, and the experience women had was often broke up as women often stop working for a time when they have children. Once education, amounts of work experience, and similiar job fields were compared (i.e. engineers to engineers, clerks to clerks) then woman made 98% of what a man did.

The study concluded that education and work experience were far more important to making more money then gender though gender did seem to have a slight (2%) effect. They theorized that women were less confrontational then men so they were less likely to go to their boss asking for a raise.

	15-02-2005 15:10									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Precisely -- that means he cares only about himself.

What if he really loves his family and he's working long hours to provide for them? Many men are emotionally stunted and have a hard time expressing emotions but that doesn't make them evil, selfish people.

	15-02-2005 16:51									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid There was also this case a couple of years ago when a sociologist studied whether boys and girls chose to play with different toys. She hoped to prove that there was no difference in toy preference, but she was forced to conclude that the kids tended to choose toys according to the stereotypes. Needless to say, she got in trouble for these results. My favourite comment was someone who said that this kind of research should not be performed at all. "Because it harms vital political interests"

Coincidentally, I just read a piece that touches on this.

Basically, there's a syndrome some girls suffer from in which their genitalia look a bit man-like, because they were exposed to abnormal (for females) levels of testosterone in the uterus. It's been noted such girls also tend to be rather boyish in their playing preferences.

To test this, they let kids chose between two toys; a plastic porsche and a Barbie/Ken doll set. The boys overwhelmingly chose the car, the normal girls the dolls, while the girls with this syndrome chose the car over the doll about 2-1.

The point, of course, is that these girls have been brought up as girls; the social expectations they face are the same as normal girls face. The conclusion that testosterone exposture affects psychology seems inescapable, and male foetuses, of course, typically face sky-high levels compared to female ones.

	15-02-2005 17:07									#45
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They also did an experiment looking at which students are more likely to get called on. Not only are boys more likely to volunteer an answer, they found teachers of both sexes were distinctly more like to select boys over girls to answer questions. I unfortunately only heard the analysis in a program examining why girls to much better in single-sex High Schools (no cite), but having been on the right side of that divide in school, anecdotally it confirms my experience.

	15-02-2005 17:08									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Kid, No, I mean, uhh... what I'm saying is, that there are logical reasons why there are situations where there are more men in certain type of jobs. If 70 % of applicants are men adn 30% are women to a job, and later on the scene seems to be male dominant, is that a surprise? Furthermore, in case of women being pregnant, because men can't be, do you think the employer doesn't want to employ that woman because shes a woman, or because she's pregnant, or because she is going to leave the office SOON for a long time? SO, in this light, it's not oppressing. It's the fact that she'll be away. YEah it's too bad but no one said to have babies, and if they have, well, they understand why this is. It IS a different issue if an employer doesn't want to employ a woman becuase she MIGHT get pregnant in the future. This is different.

Some how you are locked on the employer's interests, and you don't give a **** about the womens. I don't care about the isolated value of the women to the employer. She is having a baby which she will hopefully nuture and produce a good citizen. So you say she deserves to be punished for that because of the employers interests. Screw that.

	15-02-2005 17:12									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Yeah it is easy. If someone is pregnant, you know. Make a decision. If someone is a woman, then so what, what could happen could would should could would you know it doesnt' even matter anymore just hire the best one, period.

I don't have a problem with hiring the best person. That doesn't happen though. Employer's discriminate, and they don't give a **** about a person's value to society, only the value to their own company. All this is pretty obvious. All you have to do is look at people's attitudes on this forum.

	15-02-2005 17:20									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Once education, amounts of work experience, and similiar job fields were compared (i.e. engineers to engineers, clerks to clerks) then woman made 98% of what a man did.

Of course or they would be facing a law suit. Do you actually think that means that women are not discriminated against. How much do you think nurses would make if the profession was dominated by men.

	15-02-2005 17:22									#49
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo I find the allusion to the Third Reich offensive on several counts.

Given that he's Finnish it's probably intended as a compliment.

	15-02-2005 17:24									#50
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@Kid: If companies declining to hire women because they might have kids is an issue (and it is), the solution is to enforce regulation that makes hiring women more attractive (say, the state pays for maternity leave), not railing against the evil of company leaderships who're trying to make their firm stay in business.

	15-02-2005 17:28									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't have a problem with hiring the best person. That doesn't happen though. Employer's discriminate, and they don't give a **** about a person's value to society, only the value to their own company. All this is pretty obvious. All you have to do is look at people's attitudes on this forum.

What the **** is this supposed to mean, Kid?

	15-02-2005 17:30									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist @Kid: If companies declining to hire women because they might have kids is an issue (and it is), the solution is to enforce regulation that makes hiring women more attractive (say, the state pays for maternity leave), not railing against the evil of company leaderships who're trying to make their firm stay in business.

I'm just complaining because people here only see the employer's interest. They automatically think that whatever is good for corporations is good for all of us.

	15-02-2005 17:31									#53
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse What the **** is this supposed to mean, Kid?

You don't think that people here have a tendency to hire a man over a women. Even Pekka?

	15-02-2005 17:33									#54
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Well of course employers choose their workers. If it wasn't so, it would be even more screwed up. IF the preggo lady is the most skilled and has skills no one else has, heck, employ that person right now. But we shouldn't decide it. They're not their to give preggoes a purpose in life or a break. What are you saying, that employers are only interested in the benefit of their own business.. ? And this is screwed up because.. ?

As for if a woman is hired and later on she gets pregnant, I find that it would be very good if the employer would not make her life difficult about it but have the attitude of helping her out instead, that is making sure she knows you aren't going to let her go, and that you'll get a temp and if you were thinking of giving her a raise, then give it now because they'll be needing the money. And of course congratulate and give a nice gift.

	15-02-2005 17:35									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm just complaining because people here only see the employer's interest here. They automatically think that whatever is good for corporations is good for all of us.

Clearly, anyone who thinks that need not be taken seriously.

But I don't see anyone arguing that here. I do see people arguing that if a company pursues the rational option within the existing system, it is not therefore evil.

	15-02-2005 17:44									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Well of course employers choose their workers. If it wasn't so, it would be even more screwed up. IF the preggo lady is the most skilled and has skills no one else has, heck, employ that person right now. But we shouldn't decide it. They're not their to give preggoes a purpose in life or a break. What are you saying, that employers are only interested in the benefit of their own business.. ? And this is screwed up because.. ?

Women are not treated equally. Or at least they are only compensated to the extent that they are like men. There is a value to being a women which they are not compensated for.

quote: As for if a woman is hired and later on she gets pregnant, I find that it would be very good if the employer would not make her life difficult about it but have the attitude of helping her out instead, that is making sure she knows you aren't going to let her go, and that you'll get a temp and if you were thinking of giving her a raise, then give it now because they'll be needing the money. And of course congratulate and give a nice gift.

Why would an employer hire someone who is going to get pregnant if they are acting in the corporations best interest? Why would they promote them?

	15-02-2005 17:47									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Clearly, anyone who thinks that need not be taken seriously. But I don't see anyone arguing that here. I do see people arguing that if a company pursues the rational option within the existing system, it is not therefore evil.

The rational option is to discriminate. There is a real cost to hiring a women because she may become pregnant, or because she has other responsibilities to her family where a man can avoid those responsibilities more easily.

The thing is that there is a social benefit to women (and men) taking care of their families.

Then there is the fact that women are discriminated against even if they don't have families, and won't have any. The employer still takes that cost into consideration.

	15-02-2005 17:50									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The rational option is to discriminate. There is a real cost to hiring a women because she may become pregnant, or because she has other responsibilities to her family where a man can avoid those responsibilities more easily.

Duh!

quote: The thing is that there is a social benefit to women (and men) taking care of their families.

Duh!

quote: Then there is the fact that women are discriminated against even if they don't have families, and won't have any. The employer still takes that cost into consideration.

Because the employer can't known whether she'll get a family.

Do you have a point?

	15-02-2005 17:52									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You don't think that people here have a tendency to hire a man over a women. Even Pekka?

I don't think that you claiming it makes it true.

I don't know whether it's true or false.

	15-02-2005 17:53									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Women are not treated equally. Or at least they are only compensated to the extent that they are like men. There is a value to being a women which they are not compensated for.

What tripe. Now you want us to pay women simply for being women?

**** that.