16-02-2005 11:43									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Women Men Robots

Will Smith
iRobot
The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air
Independence Day
That chick in iRobot that acted without emotions

	16-02-2005 11:44									#122
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A guy a work with hired a design engineer who is a lady about 3 years ago. She is single, has a kid... but she is the best worker we have. She rocks! Not to mention that in the time she has worked for us she has gone to night school to get a cooking degree and has continued to take care of her kid and continued to do excellent work for us.

Still.

The matter of fact IS women are generally worse or lesser workers than men. Why is this? I don't know. However, using statistics as a basis for an argument and is stupid, and is a two edge sword at best, as I can quote the figures of the number of women who stay home instead of furthering their career. Is that because men get a better salary? I seriously doubt it, and I see no reason to argue the contrary.

	16-02-2005 11:53									#123
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I'd hit the robot chick.

And isn't the correct spelling "Feminazi"?

	16-02-2005 12:04									#124
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Femanazi?

Who knows, he's a Finn

	16-02-2005 12:17									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious There is a value to being a women which they are not compensated for.

Value ? To whom ? If it is to "society" , then let "society" pay her . Don't make the employer do it . But that's the problem , you see . "Society" cannot pay it . Only individuals can .

	16-02-2005 12:38									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Who knows, he's a Finn

And as everyone knows, Finns have strange habits (besides carrying knives)

	16-02-2005 13:51									#127
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Value ? To whom ? If it is to "society" , then let "society" pay her . Don't make the employer do it . But that's the problem , you see . "Society" cannot pay it . Only individuals can.

Raise taxes! Pay the women!

	16-02-2005 15:55									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Secondly, I would put sociology in the same category as economics. Namely voodoo. A scientific theory must be able to be falsified. How do you do that with sociology?

It's just like the economists who do the same thing. I noticed that the biologists are the ones claiming that sociology is a science too. No coincidence.

	16-02-2005 16:05									#129
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Value ? To whom ? If it is to "society" , then let "society" pay her . Don't make the employer do it . But that's the problem , you see . "Society" cannot pay it . Only individuals can .

Aneeshmization attempt detected.

You remind me too much of Kid. Goodbye.

	16-02-2005 16:07									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger quote: I assume the "self-evident apect" is free will? Now, there's much to say about free will from the philosophical viewpoint, but I'll just note here that if it exists, it comes from brains, and is thus a biological issue whether you accept a biological foundation for sociology or not. First of all, there is this thing called "emergent properties." It may seem fuzzy and indeed it is, but many researchers argue that emergent properties do exist. For example, take intelligence. Individual neurons aren't intelligent, but if you weave a massive number of them into a vast network, intelligence emerges - it is a property of the entire system, not a property of any individual members. Secondly, I would put sociology in the same category as economics. Namely voodoo. A scientific theory must be able to be falsified. How do you do that with sociology?

How does either of these relate to what I said?

	16-02-2005 23:17									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's just like the economists who do the same thing. I noticed that the biologists are the ones claiming that sociology is a science too. No coincidence.

Studying human behavior isn't science? Why should studying the behavior of humans be any different than studying the behavior of other animals?

	16-02-2005 23:23									#132
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quote: Studying human behavior isn't science? Why should studying the behavior of humans be any different than studying the behavior of other animals?

Intensional states?

	16-02-2005 23:34									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Studying human behavior isn't science? Why should studying the behavior of humans be any different than studying the behavior of other animals? Intensional states?

WTF is that?

	17-02-2005 00:07									#134
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To be fair, there's always the behaviorist objection to be applied to the social sciences, or at least sociology: it's impossible to know for sure what somebody's thinking, only what he or she is doing. Sociology can describe trends, but beyond that it's limited by the nature of its field of study until such time as we invent a mind-reading device, at which point said device will be destroyed instantly by the ACLU. Postulating on behavior is of very limited value without the ability to confirm its cause or reason. It's like we can say "**** happens," but can't describe the digestive system.

Which is not to say that Sociology is "not a real science." I don't know enough about it to say that, though I'm told Sociology is the art of using many words to turn a painfully obvious statement into a profound scientific truth. But who knows?

	17-02-2005 00:19									#135
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quote: WTF is that?

Beliefs and desires. Especially beliefs: the background of belief that goes into explaining any human action is massive.

Of course, you could be an eliminativist, but not many people are.

	17-02-2005 00:22									#136
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Are you suggesting that chimps do not hold beliefs?

	17-02-2005 00:25									#137
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quote: Are you suggesting that chimps do not hold beliefs?

Perhaps, but bugs don't.

	17-02-2005 00:29									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident this may be true, but women still make less money than men.

And red-haired less than blonds. who cares?

	17-02-2005 00:56									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Are you suggesting that chimps do not hold beliefs? Perhaps, but bugs don't.

That, surely, ought suggest, then, that the study of chimps has at least as much to do with the study of humans as with that of bugs?

	17-02-2005 01:00									#140
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quote: That, surely, ought suggest, then, that the study of chimps has at least as much to do with the study of humans as with that of bugs?

It depends. The easiest way to predict human behaviour is by means of attributed intensional states. I've never met a chimp, but I suppose the same goes for them, although not to any great degree.

For example, human beings have second order beliefs (beliefs about their beliefs). I don't think you need to invoke those kinds of beliefs to predict chimp behaviour.

Bugs on the other hand.

	17-02-2005 01:34									#141
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My main beef with the people on the Nurture side of things is that many of them, instead of debating the science, start spewing out ad hominims against the scientists. Population geneticist and rabid marxist Richard Lewontin is the most infamous at spewing insults at, and Godwinizing arguments with, scientists whose data does not match his politics.

	17-02-2005 02:00									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: That, surely, ought suggest, then, that the study of chimps has at least as much to do with the study of humans as with that of bugs? It depends. The easiest way to predict human behaviour is by means of attributed intensional states. I've never met a chimp, but I suppose the same goes for them, although not to any great degree. For example, human beings have second order beliefs (beliefs about their beliefs). I don't think you need to invoke those kinds of beliefs to predict chimp behaviour.

You're wrong; chimps are capable of beliefs about beliefs to a couple of levels. Humans are capable of a few more.

(We can, of course, imagine an infinite regression of levels, but we can only actually work with about half-a-dozen ones in practice.)

	17-02-2005 02:06									#143
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double post

	17-02-2005 02:53									#144
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quote: You're wrong; chimps are capable of beliefs about beliefs to a couple of levels. Humans are capable of a few more.

Like what?

	17-02-2005 03:00									#145
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Chimps are able to think communism is a good idea. Humans are able to KNOW it's not, but capitalism is a good idea. There I said it. I know I said it and I did so there.

	17-02-2005 03:17									#146
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Let's start a new movement:

Y-Front

for us who have Y chromosomes!


(By this post, I'm just bookmarking this thread for later read, I have very little time this week)

	17-02-2005 03:19									#147
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that's a brilliant name. I approve that message!

	17-02-2005 03:21									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: You're wrong; chimps are capable of beliefs about beliefs to a couple of levels. Humans are capable of a few more. Like what?

Please clarify what you're asking.

	17-02-2005 03:24									#149
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quote: Please clarify what you're asking.

What sort of second order beliefs have chimps been attributed. I haven't read up on this stuff for a while, but the last I heard the chimp language experiments were inconclusive.

I'm interested.

	17-02-2005 04:50									#150
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We are never really going to know whether a woman can been great business people until a woman founds a business and makes it into a a huge winner, like Microsoft, or perhaps takes a failing business and turns it into a big successs. The prejudices against women will persist until they are dramatically proven false by events.