17-02-2005 10:05									#61
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quote: Oh wait, that's right - you're american. Your idea of a "better world" is $0.50 big macs and an 18 wheeler in every driveway.

50 cent big macs?

Where can I sign up?

	17-02-2005 12:13									#62
	Re: How will Canada keep warm now?!? Suffering from ads?

Snuggle up to some beaver.

	17-02-2005 13:27									#63
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn What does clean air have to do with Kyoto? What doesn't it have to do with it?

Now I know you don't know what you are talking about.

	17-02-2005 13:29									#64
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quote: Originally posted by My Wife Hates CIV The issue with Kyoto is that it screws nations like Canada and the United States, which have a developed industrial base, and it lets completely off the hook an la nation like China, which has no restrictions and is allowed to build factories and pollute like crazy in order to catch up with the rest.

Do you know what you are talking about, MWHC? The PRC is actively seeking ways to reduce pollution. They are clamping down on dirty power generator plants, building renewable generator plants, and improving energy efficiency.

One big stupid thing they did was to built a ton of highways and turned loose private cars. They should have just ramped up the public transport systems and stuck with bicycles. I see cars as the one big pollution source that will be hard to tackle.

	17-02-2005 13:31									#65
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NYE, it also interesting that countries like Brazil and most African countries use brush and forest fires to make the ground arable. These fires put an awful lot of CO2 into the air each year, perhaps dwarfing the output from cars and power plants. And yet, none of this seems to count and no one is calling for cutbacks.

	17-02-2005 13:42									#66
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Heck with the rest of the US- The People's Republic of Berkeley endorses the Kyoto Protocol.

http://www.dailycal.org/article.php?id=17629

	17-02-2005 13:43									#67
	Full PM-box? Change here!

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily..._6686_db065.htm

quote: China's Big, Dirty Secret China's runaway growth is taking a heavy toll on the environment and public health. Beijing hints of changes, but so far, it's mostly talk Economic juggernaut, factory of the world, emerging superpower: When it comes to China's ascendancy, the journalistic clichés come fast and furious. And there's no denying that China's hypergrowth wave is a wondrous thing. But another, darker dimension to China's prosperity exists. The country is fast becoming an ecological wasteland, home to some of the world's smoggiest cities as well as rampant water shortages, soil erosion, and acid rain. Advertisement It's not a pretty picture. Moreover, judging by the spike in respiratory diseases and other ailments in recent years, China's wonder growth is taking a toll on public health. Chinese officials have acknowledged a problem in the past, but quickly termed it a necessary side effect of rapid industrialization and catch-up economic growth, not unlike what Japan experienced in the 1960s. What's more, China is now a net importer of oil and relies heavily on coal, much of it dirty, high-sulfur stuff, for about 70% of its domestic-energy needs. Unless China can secure significantly more oil supplies from abroad and ramp up cleaner domestic-energy sources such as nuclear power and hydroelectric plants, Chinese President Hu Jintao and his Communist colleagues will face a nasty policy dilemma. BETTING ON DENIAL. Runaway economic growth with little thought of environmental side effects at some point can provoke societal backlash. It's difficult to tell whether Beijing understands this challenge, but signs indicate it may be starting to. Last month, China's State Environmental Protection Administration (SEPA) Vice-Director Pan Yue announced the suspension of 30 large projects that have failed to meet environmental standards. The list includes 26 hydropower stations, including a $5 billion megaproject in an area skirting the borders of Sichuan and Yunnan provinces. Under an environmental law passed in late 2003, such projects must have environmental impact statements in place, and efforts must be made to limit any fallout. Before the law passed, however, local governments would rush forward with big-tickets projects to generate more growth regionally, blithely ignoring environmental impacts. In essence, they bet that government authorities would look the other way. For a long time, they did. In a statement posted on the environmental agency's Web site, Pan seemed to indicate that game is over. "We shall never be reduced to rubber-stamping," he said, adding the government was now committed to reining in the growth of environmentally damaging power-generation projects as well as those in basic industries such as iron, steel, and cement. ENERGY SQUANDERER. . Trouble is, there isn't much Pan can do to force the projects' backers to really clean up their acts. SEPA doesn't have the authority to cancel construction of these plants for good. Nor can it impose much in the way of penalties. Still, in the context of Chinese politics, his move is startling. Nobody expects Beijing officialdom to turn into a bunch of tree-huggers, of course. But if they want to put China on a more sustainable growth track and at least halt the pace of environmental damage affecting big chunks of the mainland, SEPA must be given some real authority -- and that's not likely to happen soon. Also, China needs to diversify from its heavy dependence on coal for energy -- or at least encourage investment in cleaner coal-burning technologies now common in the West and Japan. It also must improve energy efficiency across the country. There's a colossal amount of energy waste, thanks to primitive coal-mining techniques, loose building-construction codes, and inefficient factories. For every $1 of gross domestic product produced, China spends three times the world average on energy. WEALTHY AND UNHEALTHY? It's also a standout in other less-than-admirable areas. China leads the global pack in sulfur-dioxide emissions, has a massive acid rain problem, and contains more than a dozen of the most polluted cities on earth. One World Bank study estimated that environmental damage costs China some $170 billion a year in lost productivity and associated health care. Unfortunately, such costs don't seem relevant when China is clocking near double-digit growth year in and year out. Some economists think China's rapid growth period could last well into the next decade. That may be true. If so, millions of ordinary Chinese families may see their living standards rise, doubtless a good thing. One just hopes that China doesn't commit ecological suicide along the way. For if it does, China may be rich, but who will want to live there?

	17-02-2005 13:49									#68
	Put an end to popups!

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/englis...tent_399891.htm

quote: China looks to the elements for renewable energy Qin Jize 2004-12-14 06:08 As the country's fast economic development demands more electricity, and the world moves towards renewable resources, China is looking at wind as an energy source. Wind is the fastest growing source of electricity in the world but its use in China is still low, even though there is actually plenty of it here. "China has two major windy regions," said Zhu Ruizhao, professor with the Chinese Academy of Meteorological Sciences. He said one is a large area from the northwest to the northeast, the other, along the coast in the east. Zhu said the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region and the vast grasslands of the Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region are especially rich in wind energy. So far just 0.11 per cent of China's energy is created by wind. To the end of last year, China had an installed wind capacity of 567 megawatts and 40 wind electricity plants, built in 14 provinces, municipalities and autonomous regions. The largest one is currently in Dabancheng in Xinjiang. Promoting development China is now taking substantial measures to promote commercial development of wind energy use and to encourage the establishment of wind electricity plants. In Shanghai, two wind facilities are being built with a combined capacity of 21 megawatts. Similar constructions are under way all over the country. The projects support China's national initiative that targets the creation of 20 gigawatts of new renewable energy by 2020. A research report prepared by Greenpeace, the European Wind Energy Association and the China Renewable Industry Association says that China's wind energy reserves could exceed all of China's current power generation. In 2020, electricity generated by wind energy could reach 14 per cent of the global wind energy output, the report forecasts. The primary plan is to launch a two-year plan, evaluating and choosing sites to build 20 major wind plants all over the country. "With the Chinese Government's growing support for cleaner, renewable energy solutions, we're truly seeing an increase in wind energy demand in China," said Steve Fludder, president of GE Energy-China, a major wind turbine producer. "Early action by the government to stimulate the emerging wind energy market will result in abundant and cost-effective clean energy for the future," said Li Mingbo, a senior official of Xianning in Central China's Hubei Province. New energy market China's wind energy resources represent a significant new energy business opportunity and are considered to be among the world's best. About 10 domestic companies are now involved in the design and manufacture of wind turbines. Turbines account for 70 per cent of the total cost of a wind farm, and those imported from foreign countries are much more expensive. Zhu said 70 per cent of all turbines are expected to be labelled "made in China" next year. "We are committed to efforts to use green energy and we want to make profit out of it," said Guo Xiaoying, general manager of a Beijing-based technical company, which invested in a wind electricity project in Inner Mongolia. Guo said there were still a few practical obstacles to get over, such as the high risk of commercial development and difficulty in integrating with the national power network. She said she was looking forward to more favourable incentive policies for wind power development from the government. Financing is also a key issue, said Wang Zhongying, director of the renewable energy development centre of the Energy Research Institute under the National Development and Reform Commission. "There is a lack of effective investment incentive mechanisms or a sustainable and stable policy framework to promote renewable energy," she said. Zhu Ruizhao, professor with the Chinese Academy of Meteorological Sciences, said that for China, where the infrastructure is still backward, the development of wind energy needs a lot of money. He said investors need detailed wind resource evaluations and policies to assure them of benefits. Wang said she was looking forward to a policy to be framed in the form of the country's first law on renewable energy, which is likely to debut in the second half of next year at the earliest. Renewable energy currently takes up less than 1 per cent of all energy in China mainly because it tends to be much more expensive due to higher production costs. The cost of wind farms, for instance, would be twice as much as coal-fired power plants, Wang said. Grid companies are obliged to buy all of their electricity from qualified renewable energy sources, and pass on the higher electricity price to the end users with some government subsidies. "This is the system of sharing costs," Wang said. She said the object of the system was to carry out the obligations of the whole nation. "And that is fair," she added. "A clean world is beneficial to everybody." On the supply side, it is mandatory for large power companies to build some renewable energy capacity, said Wang. To identify the responsibilities of the power generator and grid company, according to Wang, the grid company should be responsible for building renewable power transmission lines. Germany has installed more than 6,000 megawatts of wind power and the United States has seen significant development in the last decade, including 1,000 megawatts of new capacity in 1999 alone. "To be the leader of the energy revolution, China still has a long way to go," Zhu added.

	17-02-2005 13:53									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Do you know what you are talking about, MWHC? The PRC is actively seeking ways to reduce pollution. They are clamping down on dirty power generator plants, building renewable generator plants, and improving energy efficiency.

The big problem is that besides talk there is very little being done. It's not cost efficient. Also, you haven't address the factories that are spewing out pollution.

	17-02-2005 14:07									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ned NYE, it also interesting that countries like Brazil and most African countries use brush and forest fires to make the ground arable. These fires put an awful lot of CO2 into the air each year, perhaps dwarfing the output from cars and power plants. And yet, none of this seems to count and no one is calling for cutbacks.

you cannot actually be serious about this. deforestation is indeed a significant problem but the one time CO2 emissions are nothing compared to what an electric coal plant produces on a daily basis.

and before we start, i know that the natural output of greenhouse gasses is larger than the output caused by humans. however, the system is 'calibrated' on the natural output. we put in more and destroy the forests that clean it up. and that's the real problem.

and again, how is finger pointing at other countries (polluting less than you) going to solve anything?

	17-02-2005 14:18									#71
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I was watching European Journal the other night (Deuthsewelle) and saw an interesting story about the environment minister (I'm not sure exactly as I was channel surfing and missed the beginning of the story) visiting a school and discussing Kyoto.

He described the non-participation in the treaty of the U.S. like this:

Imagine that your class decides to join together for your mutual good. But one of you, the biggest one says I'm not going to do it, and neither are any of you!

Well just to clarify this for any who have been unfortunate enough to receive such a Green education, we in the U.S. have no problem with you making whatever agreements with each other you like. We do reserve the right however to decide whether we will become signatories of treaties on an individual basis.

	17-02-2005 14:24									#72
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following that logic, why was everybody in the us pissed off at france when they said that you could put your war in iraq where the sun doesn't shine.

there is a sad truth in the thing the german minister said. however it's not applicable to the case of the kyoto protocol.

	17-02-2005 17:38									#73
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Another thing that the reduction of gas emission will do is save you a lot of money. People who are against the Kyoto protocol don't seem to know this. It's sad, but it's a misconception that the Kyoto pact will screw the economy. I don't see anything but advantages in reducing the emission. Any sane person could see this

	17-02-2005 17:43									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I was watching European Journal the other night (Deuthsewelle) and saw an interesting story about the environment minister (I'm not sure exactly as I was channel surfing and missed the beginning of the story) visiting a school and discussing Kyoto. He described the non-participation in the treaty of the U.S. like this: Imagine that your class decides to join together for your mutual good. But one of you, the biggest one says I'm not going to do it, and neither are any of you! Well just to clarify this for any who have been unfortunate enough to receive such a Green education, we in the U.S. have no problem with you making whatever agreements with each other you like. We do reserve the right however to decide whether we will become signatories of treaties on an individual basis.

We know that
Why else are we doing Kyoto while you are not.
It doesn't change the fact that it's ridiculous that the biggest polluters don't join Kyoto. It's pathetic really. Kyoto could make a difference if you take part in it; without the big polluters the effect will be much smaller, and that's a shame tbh

	17-02-2005 22:58									#75
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I would think that the biggest polluter would be the least likely to join. They didn't become the biggest polluter by signing environmental contracts.

	17-02-2005 23:02									#76
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Kyoto is worthless and any attempts will fail until the 3rd world is included in the caps. I don't want to lose one job over an attempt that is destined to fail.

	17-02-2005 23:08									#77
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But don't you think third world country should get a fair chance to screw up the environment too?

	18-02-2005 10:34									#78
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis you cannot actually be serious about this. deforestation is indeed a significant problem but the one time CO2 emissions are nothing compared to what an electric coal plant produces on a daily basis. and before we start, i know that the natural output of greenhouse gasses is larger than the output caused by humans. however, the system is 'calibrated' on the natural output. we put in more and destroy the forests that clean it up. and that's the real problem. and again, how is finger pointing at other countries (polluting less than you) going to solve anything?

Numbskull.

	18-02-2005 22:08									#79
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hmmm... i'm starting to feel cooler already. maybe it's working.

	18-02-2005 22:20									#80
	Tired of ads?

You will never be cool.

	18-02-2005 22:22									#81
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

i'm always cool in my house with my AC blasting. mmmmm... i can feel all that coal being burned up to produce the electric power needed to run my big fat american house. even the garage where i keep my SUV is cooled with AC.

	18-02-2005 22:28									#82
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Only one SUV? Get with it man.

	18-02-2005 22:29									#83
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well... i have my vette and ATV in with it too. along with all the wood I burn each year. fills up fast!

	18-02-2005 22:36									#84
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I've had 20+ cars idling at the same time before......

	18-02-2005 22:36									#85
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Just to let you know but vette does not sounds like a cool car. Not that American cars are any good or cool to begin with but you're sure not helping it by calling it that.

Vette sounds like a loud, fat, trailler trashy, dumb....hmmm, never mind.

	18-02-2005 22:36									#86
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Woodburning is too clean. You need to burn quarts of motor oil in your fireplace to really be warm.

	18-02-2005 22:44									#87
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Hey, i looked out the window... i still see canada burning stuff!!! nasty looking stuff too. You people need to clean up your act!

	18-02-2005 23:07									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Now I know you don't know what you are talking about.

Ned. If you can't see how lowering polluting emmisions might lead to cleaner air, then you truly are an without a clue.

quote: ...environmental groups say such estimates don't take into account the economic benefits of conserving energy or the reduced cost of health care that comes with cleaner air.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kyoto/costs.html

Now, Ned. Go away. No one takes you seriously.

	18-02-2005 23:08									#89
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quote: Originally posted by My Wife Hates CIV Hey, i looked out the window... i still see canada burning stuff!!! nasty looking stuff too. You people need to clean up your act!

Thats pretty cool. I've always wondered what it would be like to live in one country and be able to see another one on a daily basis. Border cultures are interesting.

	18-02-2005 23:22									#90
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Thats pretty cool. I've always wondered what it would be like to live in one country and be able to see another one on a daily basis. Border cultures are interesting.

I can do that on clear days out of the window from my condo. Not much detail, though - just upstate New York from across the lake.