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Jon Miller
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this isan't about prayer
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stop the a**** yo tyou rnewbies
JM
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:23
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Why not just go to the pub. Enjoy yourself without falling into ignorance and superstition.
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What is there for me at the pub? Something to drink, and to dull the pain of the day?
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Religion is no more credible than belief in fairies. It has no place in public policy for that reason, and anything that might lead it to, should be suppressed.
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Just because something is incredulous does not mean it ought to be suppressed. If no one can believe in God, why bother to suppress those who follow him?
I think you really believe the opposite, that God is very credible, and ought to be suppressed to prevent others from coming to know him.
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It's really great to be a free person: free of belief in imps and devils and jealous Gods - projections of sexual neuroses.
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And you are totally free, Agathon? What makes you think that in rejecting God, you will be free from him? If it is true that he created us, and the world around us, we could be no more free from him than we could be free of the concerns of this world.
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:23
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What is there for me at the pub? Something to drink, and to dull the pain of the day? |
Merriment, relaxation, conversation, friends, love, ribaldry. In short many of the things that make life worth living as long as you indulge in moderation.
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Just because something is incredulous does not mean it ought to be suppressed. If no one can believe in God, why bother to suppress those who follow him? |
Because they spend their time telling other people what to do, or at least trying to. We have two options:
(a) Run our society based on beliefs that can be demonstrated as true or most likely to be true to anyone who should care to inquire.
or
(b) Run it based on superstition.
I'm not going to tolerate people who trust in God's good will to save us from climate change.
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I think you really believe the opposite, that God is very credible, and ought to be suppressed to prevent others from coming to know him. |
Nobody knows God, he/she/it is by definition unknowable by finite beings such as ourselves.
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And you are totally free, Agathon? What makes you think that in rejecting God, you will be free from him? If it is true that he created us, and the world around us, we could be no more free from him than we could be free of the concerns of this world. |
Perhaps, but that is not something that any human being could ever know. So we are left with choice of following the guesses of mad prophets, or of using our own reason to determine what the world is like.
Sorry, but I'll take reason over faith any day. Faith based social science is a contradiction in terms, as is faith based science.
Religion has little constructive to offer in addition to reason other than blind prejudice.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:23
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Merriment, relaxation, conversation, friends, love, ribaldry. In short many of the things that make life worth living as long as you indulge in moderation.
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I have all that, without ever needing to step into a pub. It's not a choice of either or, being a Christian doesn't mean you stop engaging in fellowship with others. Rather, it is encouraged.
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Because they spend their time telling other people what to do, or at least trying to. We have two options:
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Do you think I spend the majority of my day telling others what to do? You have a strange perception of life as a Christian. Much more of it is spent trying to figure out what can I do to make things better.
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(a) Run our society based on beliefs that can be demonstrated as true or most likely to be true to anyone who should care to inquire.
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Christians would assert that their beliefs can be proven as much as any other set of beliefs can be proven. So you are back to square one. What is it that makes a belief proven?
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(b) Run it based on superstition.
I'm not going to tolerate people who trust in God's good will to save us from climate change.
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The methods are one thing. The motivations are quite another. What would you say to a Christian who believed that since we are given dominion over the Earth, that we should uphold our proper responsibility to take care of it? This is why we ought to support these measures on climate change, because they work to the same end.
By the same token, someone could also challenge the science behind climate change, in an effort to pinpoint what amount human intervention contributes, while holding the same premise that God has given man dominion over the Earth.
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Nobody knows God, he/she/it is by definition unknoweable by finite beings such as ourselves.
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To know someone is it necessary to know everything about them? Granted, we cannot perfectly know God, but if God is omnipotent, he ought also be able to reveal part of himself to those whom he chooses.
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Perhaps, but that is not something that any human being could ever know. So we are left with choice of following the guesses of mad prophets, or of using our own reason to determine what the world is like.
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What makes the prophets mad? Isn't it reasonable to consider that God may have revealed himself to them, thus accounting for both their message, and their delivery of said message?
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Sorry, but I'll take reason over faith any day. Faith based social science is a contradiction in terms, as is faith based science.
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Again, it isn't in conflict. It is not a choice between faith or reason, but a choice between reason alone, or faith in addition to reason. Surely you can see the limitations of human reason? We could not possibly understand anything outside of the natural world through our falliable human understanding.
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Religion has little constructive to offer in addition to reason other than blind prejudice.
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"There are more things in heaven and Earth than you have dreamt of in your philosophy."
Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 18-02-2005 at 12:50
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:23
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I have all that, without ever needing to step into a pub. |
Beer is a useful lubricant.
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It's not a choice of either or, being a Christian doesn't mean you stop engaging in fellowship with others. |
It's the fellatio I'm worried about. 
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Do you think I spend the majority of my day telling others what to do? You have a strange perception of life as a Christian. Much more of it is spent trying to figure out what can I do to make things better. |
By stopping homosexuals from marrying or parenting based on theological grounds?
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Christians would assert that their beliefs can be proven as much as any other set of beliefs can be proven. |
But they have singularly failed to prove them.
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So you are back to square one. What is it that makes a belief proven? |
Evidence. Continental Drift is proven because it simply requires too much suspension of disbelief to believe that it isn't. Same goes for evolution.
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The methods are one thing. The motivations are quite another. What would you say to a Christian who believed that since we are given dominion over the Earth, that we should uphold our proper responsibility to take care of it? |
That the notion that we are given dominion over the earth is fantastical. We're just here, same as the other beasties, as far as we can tell.
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This is why we ought to support these measures on climate change, because they work to the same end. |
Stem cell research? Genetic Engineering?
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By the same token, someone could also challenge the science behind climate change, in an effort to pinpoint what amount human intervention contributes, while holding the same premise that God has given man dominion over the Earth. |
But that premise supplies no verifiable information. You can't present any evidence of it to a reasonable person and expect them to concur. On the other hand, an honest person of good will, will not dispute a scientific claim if it is adequately supported with evidence.
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To know someone is it necessary to know everything about them? Granted, we cannot perfectly know God, but if God is omnipotent, he ought also be able to reveal part of himself to those whom he chooses. |
But there is no reason to believe that he does. There are any number of more credible explanations for such experiences.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:23
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Beer is a useful lubricant.
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As is wine. 
After all you did say in moderation.
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It's the fellatio I'm worried about.
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I don't see scripture preventing married couples from indulging in this. After all, you're married, so what do you have to worry about?
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By stopping homosexuals from marrying or parenting based on theological grounds?
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And do I spend the majority of my day on that? Hardly. More of my time is spent reading about the debates on parliament, rather than spending time discussing about what they ought to do. All 42 pages of them. 
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But they have singularly failed to prove them.
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By what measure of proof? I would say that they have proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, their claims. I wouldn't be a Christian, if I didn't have said evidence. That's why I need to know what constitutes proof of a belief.
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Evidence. Continental Drift is proven because it simply requires too much suspension of disbelief to believe that it isn't. Same goes for evolution.
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That's a curious thought. Like saying a mercantalist economic theory cannot be true, because for us who have been shown otherwise, it requires too much suspension of disbelief.
Open your mind a bit, Agathon, and consider the position of these innovators. Sure, a theory may make sense now, but even back then, there were challenges to both the content and the scope.
As for continental drift, it is a theory. As is evolution. We will likely move beyond both in their current forms as we gain greater understanding of how the world works. To say otherwise, is to ignore the historical process of scientific investigation, to replace theories with better ones.
Or even your Hegelian dialectic, which says the same. I shouldn't need to remind you that one of the primary presuppositions, is that no current theory can be perfectly true.
Now, that being said, the question becomes, what are the claims of Christians that need to be proven? Is the question, whether there is a God at all, or something else? If the former, then there are things Christians have used, but the investigation and evidence is by no means limited to Christianity.
You know about things like Virtues. Where do they come from Agathon?
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That the notion that we are given dominion over the earth is fantastical. We're just here, same as the other beasties, as far as we can tell.
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And the evidence that we seem to have achieved a higher state?
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But that premise supplies no verifiable information. You can't present any evidence of it to a reasonable person and expect them to concur.
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You are a student of reason. Can you not also say that man possesses reason beyond that of other animals?
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On the other hand, an honest person of good will, will not dispute a scientific claim if it is adequately supported with evidence.
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True, but neither is a Christian dishonest when he appeals to the scientific evidence surrounding climate change. Christianity is neutral to how climate change ought to be tackled.
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But there is no reason to believe that he does. There are any number of more credible explanations for such experiences.
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Presupposing that God is omnipotent, and that he created us, we also have the point that he loves us. Now, if he loves us, will he not make himself known?
What are these more 'reasonable' causes?
Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 18-02-2005 at 13:49
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:23
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I don't see scripture preventing married couples from indulging in this. After all, you're married, so what do you have to worry about? |
You don't, but plenty of other religious people do. It's quite arbitrary.
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And do I spend the majority of my day on that? |
Cough... 
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Hardly. More of my time is spent reading about the debates on parliament, rather than spending time discussing about what they ought to do. All 42 pages of them. |
Again.. it is arbitrary. Some people's religion might say it's OK, others not. But there is no reason to prefer one over the other.
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By what measure of proof? I would say that they have proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, their claims. I wouldn't be a Christian, if I didn't have said evidence. That's why I need to know what constitutes proof of a belief. |
By any reasonable measure of proof. God's existence cannot be proved logically, so we are thrown back on empirical proofs, and there is simply no proof other than the uncorroborated testimony of some people. It's less of a stretch to believe that they are mad or full of it, than it is to believe that God's existence is unproven.
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That's a curious thought. Like saying a mercantalist economic theory cannot be true, because for us who have been shown otherwise, it requires too much suspension of disbelief.
Open your mind a bit, Agathon, and consider the position of these innovators. Sure, a theory may make sense now, but even back then, there were challenges to both the content and the scope. |
Which is why the scientific community rejected it until the evidence favoured it.
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As for continental drift, it is a theory. As is evolution. We will likely move beyond both in their current forms as we gain greater understanding of how the world works. To say otherwise, is to ignore the historical process of scientific investigation, to replace theories with better ones. |
Fine. I can accept that. But its the best we can do now with publicly available evidence. Theorizing about God has failed to produce any such evidence.
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Or even your Hegelian dialectic, which says the same. I shouldn't need to remind you that one of the primary presuppositions, is that no current theory can be perfectly true. |
Hegel is rubbish. His logic, which underpins much of his ideas, has been superseded by the propositional and predicate calculus.
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Now, that being said, the question becomes, what are the claims of Christians that need to be proven? Is the question, whether there is a God at all, or something else? If the former, then there are things Christians have used, but the investigation and evidence is by no means limited to Christianity. |
What evidence?
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You know about things like Virtues. Where do they come from Agathon? |
Our natural constitution.
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And the evidence that we seem to have achieved a higher state? |
Is being further destroyed as we seek. In 50 years we will understand enough about the brain to know exactly how this happened. As it stands today, all the evidence points to this conclusion.
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You are a student of reason. Can you not also say that man possesses reason beyond that of other animals? |
Different in degree, and perhaps some capacities are different. But that in no way requires a transcendental explanation.
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True, but neither is a Christian dishonest when he appeals to the scientific evidence surrounding climate change. Christianity is neutral to how climate change ought to be tackled. |
Perhaps your version is, but that is arbitrary. Someone who believes that God will save us from global warming or that Armageddon will come first will not agree with you. And you are in no better position than they are, because religious beliefs are evidence transcendent.
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Presupposing that God is omnipotent, and that he created us, we also have the point that he loves us. Now, if he loves us, will he not make himself known? |
I could make exactly the same presupposition for Gerald the super space goat. It is arbitrary.
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What are these more 'reasonable' causes? |
Ones that can be tested against the world.
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My Wife Hates CIV
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Michigan
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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All times are GMT. The time now is 05:23.
Apolyton Time is 00:23. |
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18-02-2005 09:52
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