18-02-2005 08:14									#1
	Speed of Turns Support Apolyton

I think we should have a vote on this issue, since it certainly is a point of concern for some folks, and this is a democracy game.

Please use the following link to understand the topic being voted on here:

link

(That's my post suggesting the below options. Nobody else suggested anything else, so I'm just including those options here; of course any alternatives will also be considered if posted here. Also read up that thread a page or so to see the questions leading up to that.)

Options are:
[list x=1]

[*] 12 hours after save sent to your team OR 24 hours after save sent to previous team
[*] 12 hours, of which at least 2 hours must fall within a pre-set 8 hour window (set by your team), or else the save window is extended so that 2 hours fall within the window
[*] 12 hours, period.
[/list]
Team captains, please vote. This only applies to the 12 hour turns; once 'middle ages' are reached, strict 24 hour turn limit applies with none of this other stuff, as all of us are up at least once every 24 hours (i hope ... no vampires in antarctica playing in this game are there? )

Euphorica:
BOH:
Team Babylon:
Desolation Row:
Lost Boys:
Team Conquest:

	18-02-2005 10:08									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Number 1. 12 hours after save sent to your team OR 24 hours after save sent to previous team

	18-02-2005 19:21									#3
	Re: Speed of Turns Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 I think we should have a vote on this issue, since it certainly is a point of concern for some folks, and this is a democracy game.

I think you should play your turn in madness.

	18-02-2005 20:06									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

From the peanut gallery:

From experience, 12 hours after getting the save is just not going to work.

Let's say I personally get the save a 6 AM for a private PBEM. I'm on my way to work, (10 hours + hour commute) there's just NO way I'll be playing that within 12 hours.

Similar problems can arise from the '24 hours from the previous team' option, given differences in times.

Now, you'll say that this is a TEAM though, and surely someone will be able to play it. Realistically though, that's not the case. After 3 years of demo games, I've learned that each team typically has 1 player and perhaps a backup or two, who will typically try to wait for the 'main' player to play if he can. (I've only seen one team where this is not the case in more than 10 teams I've been on) And, these are relatively small teams, guys. Not the 100 member poly teams for IDG games.

IMO, therefore, the best way to make this work is for each team to say they will play their turn within a set time. Not within an imposed timelimit in terms of hours after getting the save.

Team A plays from 0:00 to 12:00, Team B from 12:00 to 0:00...etc etc. I think most of us have a typical time they play PBEM's, allow the team players to work that in.

Times might need to be adjusted, and there might be gaps that go a little over 12 hours, but it should be possible to work something out to

* UnOrthOdOx is playing a PBEM where each player has an hour window to play each day or they are skipped. Best moving game I've been in, and it's no problem because I play all my PBEM's at that time anyway.

	06-03-2005 20:19									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Uno - I understand where you are coming from - but I think we need to break from the old demo game format/process. I like the 12 hour rule.

That will mean teams may need more than one player ready to play. It may also mean that they cannot have 100% discussion and voting on certain actions.

It will mean that teams have to be continually discussing options and possibilities, so that when the save rolls around - they are ready to go. It may mean the player for a team has to make a unilateral decision every now and then.

But, it will mean that the game continues to move, and that we don't lose interest as has been the case with other games.

The faster pace was a premise of this game when it was first discussed, and why I was willing to get involved. I for one will be very disappointed if this falls back into the same rate of play as some of the other games on the go.

Also, keep in mind that Civ4 is coming.

	06-03-2005 21:31									#6
	Put an end to popups!

I agree with Beta here. And it has worked ok so far ... only occasional slowdowns when major diplomatic issues have arisen, as far as I can tell, and still we're averaging something like 3 turns a week? And nobody's been skipped yet, so far as I can tell.

If the turn comes and there's only one turnplayer, and they aren't available, then the others on the team just need to post that their main turnplayer will get to it asap and that there will be a few extra hours needed. That's it.

	07-03-2005 02:56									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

ahhh well maybe the teams need to get their secondary turn player organised and listed somewhere...

	07-03-2005 23:34									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

our team has two turn players, two active members, two diplomats and no team leader.

Conqueror is little bit busy lately (or at least I think so) and only me and Krill are doing all the job. We are both europeans and we can play only in the evenings.

This means that if both of us busy the same night nobody can play our turn.

But we have the fastest live play on the other hand

	08-03-2005 10:35									#9
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by ormuzd our team has two turn players, two active members, two diplomats and no team leader.

Haven't you heard? Communism failed

	08-03-2005 15:56									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

funny guy...

No, really - you have heard about this and I have seen seen (and I'm looking it still...)

	18-03-2005 18:47									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Snoop

any chance of getting this matter sorted and settled

	20-03-2005 00:01									#12
	Got spare money?

Is this really a problem? The speed of turns has a good overall rhythm, averaging 3 sends a day.

The speed has picked up since February. Some teams play the save faster than others, you can see who they are, and there are blips sometimes but being too gestapo like with times would suck the fun out of things and could even increase overall speed if teams decide they want to take the full alloted time each turn.

If the overall speed slows or if one team persistantly takes too long then the matter would need to be addressed, but ATM all is good.

	21-03-2005 12:53									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Personally I will be ecstatic if we can maintain a turn every 2 days with 6 teams!

	28-03-2005 01:46									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Personally I will be ecstatic if we can maintain a turn every 2 days with 6 teams!

good point indeed

and congrats to everyone for the turn rate, currently it just went from Kloreep to Kloreep in 25 hours awesome stuff that

	29-03-2005 00:00									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Between 3800bc and 3000bc

the mean save sending speed has been 9 hours and 2 minutes which equates to a turn every 54 hours

however that is influenced quite heavily by sporadic lengthy 1 off issues

the median save sending speed is only 5 hours 30 minutes which equates to a turn every 33 hours

Speeds for specific teams are avaliable, I didn't know whether to post them.....

BoH have been the fastest team in both mean and median rates of play, aswell as having the highest score in game but that remains quite close....

However they didn't have the fastest save sending, that was Desolation Row with a time of 34 minutes between recieving and send the save.

the top 5 individual save sending times are as follows

1. Desolation Row 34 mins
2. Lost Boys 37 mins
3. Team Babylon 38 mins
4. Lost Boys 43 mins
5. Desolation Row 51 mins

Although BoH have a disadvantage here as paddys email doesn't process the saves that fast.... there is usually a little discrepancy between the save being sent and recieved

- numbers are based on difference between times at which the Admin account recieved the save not on turn sent reporting time-

	29-03-2005 00:31									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

48 days since the start of the game and 20 turns have been played, 2.4 days per turn.

At that rate (subject to probable calculation error)

2000bc will be reached by Wednesday 25th May
1000bc will be reached by Monday 22nd August
10ad will be reached by Tuesday 13th December

Has a date been set for CIV to be released? Either way play faster... or start taking killing each other.. less teams means faster play....

	29-03-2005 03:24									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by OPD Speeds for specific teams are avaliable, I didn't know whether to post them.....

If you're not going to post them publicly, I know I'd be interested in Babylon's stats.

Thanks for compiling all this.

	29-03-2005 05:05									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Ah what the hell....post the stats publicly and embarrass us. We'll kill you all anyway

	29-03-2005 06:18									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Public :b

cIV has been announced for likely decemeber release, but a specific date afaik is still up in the air. I also don't know if the american (/english?) version will be released concurrently or earlier than international versions (but I guess it doesn't matter much unless it is released on DVD?)

	29-03-2005 12:55									#20
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

go public old chap

	29-03-2005 13:17									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

OPD - is your avatar Milo from Catch22?

	29-03-2005 23:14									#22
	Support Apolyton

Nah it's the guy off Mad Max

Saves from team Conquest to Euphorica didn't go through to the eod-gmail account for quite a few turns and so the averages for those 2 teams are patchy. Team Conquest come bottom but they've had turn player problems and their rating doesn't reflect the speed of their current player as none of the saves from him got through to the email account.


Mean save playing times in hours

Bloody Oath Horde...........4.82
Team Babylon...................6.26
Euphorica.........................6.59
Lost Boys.........................10.78
Desolation Row................11.61
Team Conquest................14.25

Median save playing times in hours

Bloody Oath Horde.....3.47
Team Babylon.............3.55
Euphorica....................3.75
Lost Boys....................6.39
Desolation Row...........7.78
Team Conquest...........8.75

Number of times 12 hours limit exceeded (estimated based on limited figures for Euphorica and Conquest)

Bloody Oath Horde....................0
Team Babylon............................3
Euphorica (estimated)...............3.4
Desolation Row.........................5
Lost Boys...................................8
Team Conquest (estimated)......9


The times for Euphorica are heavily influenced by the first 2 turns 3800bc and 3750bc which both took about 18 hours, if it wasn't for those 2 turns throwing off the numbers they'd be close to BoH. Other than those 2 turns they didn't go above 7 hours in any of the other recorded times.

Also the most on-off team is lost boys, half the time very quick and half the time very slow, if the previous turn is discounted their median would have been 3.4 hours per save.

Last edited by OPD on 29-03-2005 at 23:20

	30-03-2005 14:19									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by OPD Nah it's the guy off Mad Max

Thanks for the stats

and you would think an Aussie would pick an Aussie from an Aussie movie... hehe

	30-03-2005 17:05									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by OPD The times for Euphorica are heavily influenced by the first 2 turns 3800bc and 3750bc which both took about 18 hours, if it wasn't for those 2 turns throwing off the numbers they'd be close to BoH. Other than those 2 turns they didn't go above 7 hours in any of the other recorded times.

First 2 turns took so much time as we thought the whole team should be involved in deciding where to settle the first cities. Furthermore we needed a bit of time to get organised. As it seems we did well.

If there's a game of this sort to be organised again, I propose to have the game admins taking screenshots of all starting locations and sending them out to all team(captain)s. That way, all teams can get started discussing right away.

Furthermore, Ormuzd is doing a great job on his own. I hope he doesn't get discouraged and that new players will join him.

	30-03-2005 17:52									#25
	Put an end to popups!

yes indeed, Ormuzd is doing well

	30-03-2005 22:03									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

removed complaints

Krill and I are playing only in the time frame we have provided in the beginning. If we receive the save in 0100 GMT we will play it ~20 hours later

We will play it the same time even if we receive it at 1800 GMT. So, our speed is constant. I can't remember for us delaying the turn more than 24 hours (leavinf for the next night).

I'm glad the game is moving so fast and I don't think it could be faster.

From my observations McMeadows and Paddy are the fastest players. McM has played the turns even if we sent it midnight to him

Last edited by ormuzd on 30-03-2005 at 22:35

	31-03-2005 01:44									#27
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by ormuzd removed complaints From my observations McMeadows and Paddy are the fastest players. McM has played the turns even if we sent it midnight to him

To much credit for me, to be named in one breath with the PBEM-online-legend. Snoopy is covering the night shift (although I did indeed came home late a few ties and found a save in the mailbox). Moreover, having Paddy next in line helps too. He's really into the game, as he knocks on the door when the save should be in my corner.

Your new e-mail addres ended up in the junkmail, Ormuzd. It'll be allright next time.

	31-03-2005 01:59									#28
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by McMeadows ...... Moreover, having Paddy next in line helps too. He's really into the game, as he knocks on the door when the save should be in my corner.

now that ya mention it knock knock

	31-03-2005 02:35									#29
	Full PM-box? Change here!

You emailed me just when I had sent my last message here and opened the save. And sleep well, sorry for keeping you up so late...

	03-04-2005 13:17									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by McMeadows You emailed me just when I had sent my last message here and opened the save. And sleep well, sorry for keeping you up so late...

no such worries today old chap

and I like this turn rate indeed