21-02-2005 09:57									#61
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man what about tibet?

What about Puerto Rico?

	21-02-2005 10:01									#62
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Peurto Rico voted to stay in the US. If they wanted they could have had representation in Congress.

	21-02-2005 11:09									#63
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The discussion here was whether the PRC claim that the island of Taiwan is rightfully their has some merit, and the answer is, yes, it does, as currently both government officially recognize the island to be part of China, thought sort of disgaree about China's rightful government.

As for the fact that Chinese immigration is recent- you know what? So what? A traveller in 1680 would not have found a sinle white person in Hawaii, or Alaska. Does that somehow dimnish the rightful territorial claim of the US to those territories?

	21-02-2005 11:59									#64
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The discussion here was whether the PRC claim that the island of Taiwan is rightfully their has some merit, and the answer is, yes, it does, as currently both government officially recognize the island to be part of China, thought sort of disgaree about China's rightful government. As for the fact that Chinese immigration is recent- you know what? So what? A traveller in 1680 would not have found a sinle white person in Hawaii, or Alaska. Does that somehow dimnish the rightful territorial claim of the US to those territories?

Before you condem someone to a dictator, you should know something about who you are condeming.

	21-02-2005 12:03									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I don't know which universe you live in, but it is not ours.

Please explain, since you are in a big hurry to surrender a whole country to a Communistic Dictator system.

	21-02-2005 13:15									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I don't know which universe you live in, but it is not ours.

The proper way to debate is give evidence to the contrary (even if it is made up ). This is a bit insulting and rude.

	21-02-2005 13:20									#67
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Taiwan had been under Chinese authorities since the mid-1600 or so. True, it's not precisely an "ancestral Province", but it's quite a long time enough for the average country to keep claiming it.

Heck, France owns Corsica for shorter than that, but the French authorities won't relish Corsica any easily.

	21-02-2005 14:09									#68
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Given that both governments say that it is part of China, the right are just wrong.... as usual.

	21-02-2005 17:58									#69
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Agathon, are you saying that Taiwan's claim on the mainland is as legitimate as the PRC's claim on Taiwan?

	21-02-2005 19:31									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Taiwan had been under Chinese authorities since the mid-1600 or so. True, it's not precisely an "ancestral Province", but it's quite a long time enough for the average country to keep claiming it.

I'm curious. How can something be said to be apart of a country when said country hasn't had sovereignty over the "rebel province" for decades?

	21-02-2005 19:35									#71
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ask the Taiwanese.

	21-02-2005 19:48									#72
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm curious. How can something be said to be apart of a country when said country hasn't had sovereignty over the "rebel province" for decades?

When both the Rebels and the Loyalists claim it's the same country

	21-02-2005 19:54									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker ask the Taiwanese.

That really doesn't have anything to do with the question.

	21-02-2005 21:25									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker ask the Taiwanese.

Sometimes territorial boundaries have nothing to do with the will of the people- sad but true.

PRC has a legitimate claim to the island of Taiwan, period. You don;t have to be in control to have said claim- the fact that Alsace and Lorraine were in German hands for 40 years meant nothing to the French claim of those territories.

Of the Iquitos area of Peru, which Ecudaro claimed, since Peru took it from Ecuador in 1941- the fact is that even after 50 years plus of control, the issue was there and almost lead to a conflict in the mid 90's.

Heck, Japan took Formosa from China in 1895- obviously China must have had some claim for Japan to take it as spoils of war, and for China to get it back from Japan in 1945 (in time for the Nationalists to flee there in 1949).

	21-02-2005 23:24									#75
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That gives the island to the Nationalist party, not the "Communist" party. The PRC never controlled the island.

	21-02-2005 23:40									#76
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I am curious as to whether mainland China has any plans to return some land to the native Taiwanese inhabitants, if the two countries are ever united.

	22-02-2005 00:07									#77
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi I am curious as to whether mainland China has any plans to return some land to the native Taiwanese inhabitants, if the two countries are ever united.

I somehow think your curiosity is feigned

	22-02-2005 00:31									#78
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quote: Originally posted by GePap PRC has a legitimate claim to the island of Taiwan, period. You don;t have to be in control to have said claim- the fact that Alsace and Lorraine were in German hands for 40 years meant nothing to the French claim of those territories.

Neither did the fact that Alsace and Lorraine were in French hands for 200 years to the German claim on those territories.

Territorial claims -- especially as pretexts for war -- are absurd archaisms that have no place in the modern world. Governments are constructs of people, not land. War itself is an illegal act that violates international solidarity and impedes social progress.

Bah.

	22-02-2005 06:30									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I somehow think your curiosity is feigned

Maybe I'm just curious as to what the PRC's plans for the island are.

	22-02-2005 07:05									#80
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Let's set the record straight. During the Empire period of China, not one Emperor claim Taiwan. In fact during one internal struggle for power during one rein, the Emperor after the struggle was over order the Chinese that had fled to the Island to returned to the mainland and leave all of the now Taiwanese there.
Fast forward to 1900. After China became a so call Republic, not one President claim Taiwan. Then we go to Japan taking over and after the Japanese lost the war, Taiwan returned to who ever was running thing before. No one claim it and the UN said we will decide later on the Taiwan question.
Now come Chiang and his boys. They invaded the Island and kill thousand taking over. He claim the Mainland and not Taiwan, so the Mao returned the favor and claim Taiwan. However until Chiang claim the Mainland Mao never claim Taiwan.
So no Chinese Government until the Communist has ever claim Taiwan, and they did it because of Chiang.

	22-02-2005 12:59									#81
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I was just in Taiwan and it was clrearly obvious that China is in control of the island, there are museums and monuments to Mao and the revolution everywhere (though not nearly as many as mainland china).

Im sure most Taiwanese citizens will claim they are part of an independant nation, but thats sure not the way it looks


Hong Kong on the other hand still looks and feels like it is free from China's control. (they also have 6mp cameras the size of cell phones and mp3 players barely bigger than sd cards that play mpegs)

	22-02-2005 13:15									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph Let's set the record straight. During the Empire period of China, not one Emperor claim Taiwan.

That is, indeed, quite untrue. AFAIK, Taiwan was part of China as late as the Sung Dynasty - probably earlier.

quote: Originally posted by Joseph In fact during one internal struggle for power during one rein, the Emperor after the struggle was over order the Chinese that had fled to the Island to returned to the mainland and leave all of the now Taiwanese there.

I am not sure how to begin with this one. Lets ignore historical documents for a moment, even though we have got heaps of that, from the official ones (e.g. History of Ming Dynasty) to local records. Just take a look at a map. Mainland China happens to be the closest land mass from Taiwan. Seeing that humans have travelled a greater distance at a much earlier age, it is absurd to assert that no Mainland Chinese crossed the narrow strait and settle on the island.

quote: Originally posted by Joseph Fast forward to 1900. After China became a so call Republic, not one President claim Taiwan.

That was completely unnecessary because the RoC was a legitimite successor to the Qing Dynasty, which happened to have Taiwan under its control.

quote: Originally posted by Joseph Then we go to Japan taking over and after the Japanese lost the war, Taiwan returned to who ever was running thing before. No one claim it and the UN said we will decide later on the Taiwan question.

No. The UN returned it to the RoC. That's why the RoC constitution, amended in 1947, included Taiwan as part of the country as GePap pointed out.

quote: Originally posted by Joseph Now come Chiang and his boys. They invaded the Island and kill thousand taking over.

Source? Cite?

	22-02-2005 15:14									#83
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Why should he? You don't.