21-02-2005 05:53									#61
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How sad it is all. If You fight in the right cause, it would be good to fight in a right way.

	21-02-2005 06:52									#62
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc I did not state that enlisted men were not the actual interrogators - it's not my point (read the post versus react to it). My point was where did they learn these techniques? Someone higher up trained these individuals. Some of these techniques are not used in the US prison system.

Why do you need officers to train people? You seem to look down on enlisted people quite a bit.

	21-02-2005 15:43									#63
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No - and I have had two family members in the military (my vision precluded me from flying, the only way I was willing to join). However, and I have over a shelf of standard US military manuals from pre-WW2 to the 1980's bought used for historical research - the military has a prescribed procedure for almost everything. Plus, and I made my point earlier - some of these are NOT techniques used by US law enforcement, even out-of-control law enforcement.

In addition they are behaviors consistant with the Gonzales memos. Now, let's examine this using Occam'
s Razor (or KISS, keep it simple stupid). Memos from the White House Counsel hair-splitting over torture and abuse. Widespread, systematic use in the US military-run prisions/Intelligence Operative run interrogations of these marginal techniques - if done to our troops we would call it torture, but if we are doing it "well, that's different." Might, just might, there be a connection? Especially when, in the trials of the involved enlisted personnel, discovery has been kept very tight, permitting only an occasional low-ranking officer to be interviewed, if that. Plus the punishments are in general fairly light considering what could have been charged, with one exception who was stupid enough to leave himself quite vulnerable. It's not that I hold US troopers in contempt, I hold the upper level leadership in contempt.

	21-02-2005 17:40									#64
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I glad to pop back and see the same old **** flying about here. If you actually read the statement you may note that he prisoner wasnt tortured:

quote: There, the interrogator instructed guards to attach shackles from the prisoner's handcuffs to a barred window. That would let al-Jamadi stand without pain, but if he tried to lower himself, his arms would be stretched above and behind him. The documents do not make clear what happened after guards left. After about a half-hour, the interrogator called for the guards to reposition the prisoner, who was slouching with his arms stretched behind him.

Shackling someone in this manner is not a 'palestinian hanging' at all. He was not tortured at the prison, he died from a beating (which may have been torture or may have been incurred while subduing him). How and why he was beaten are unclear.

	21-02-2005 17:44									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin And I thought it was just another stupid Finn mouthing off about things he didn't understand in the slightest.

Oh sure, Its not a war crime, what was I thinking. Just ask Ned, Fez or Oerdin about it.

Your views about whats going on in Iraq and claims that China and Russia are socialist just proves how bend you really are.


Anyway I'm sure we can take this outside without spamming this thread.

	21-02-2005 17:49									#66
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Ah well, when US troops allies get tortured to death, it will be for a "good" reason.

Revenge.

Makes me wonder how they train CIA interrogators... or maybe they just recruit from psychiatric units.

	21-02-2005 23:44									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Lefties don't want to ***** about fellow leftie governments like China or Russia. They'd much rather whine about the evil US.

Excuse me? The oligarchs who rule both countires can go to hell. Not all people on the left are ignorant idiots like techumseh and Tripledoc.

	21-02-2005 23:49									#68
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Call me whatever you want Odin, but don't try to put words in my mouth. I don't support either the Russian or Chinese governments, nor do I consider the them left wing.

	22-02-2005 00:02									#69
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quote: Lefties don't want to ***** about fellow leftie governments like China or Russia. They'd much rather whine about the evil US.

I don't ***** about China and Russia, because I expect those places to treat humans like scum.

Or am I wrong in assuming that the United States was supposed to be a paragon of goodness, democracy, liberty, and the American way?

Guess so, since we all know what assuming does.

	22-02-2005 00:54									#70
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc In addition they are behaviors consistant with the Gonzales memos. Now, let's examine this using Occam' s Razor (or KISS, keep it simple stupid). Memos from the White House Counsel hair-splitting over torture and abuse. Widespread, systematic use in the US military-run prisions/Intelligence Operative run interrogations of these marginal techniques - if done to our troops we would call it torture, but if we are doing it "well, that's different." Might, just might, there be a connection? Especially when, in the trials of the involved enlisted personnel, discovery has been kept very tight, permitting only an occasional low-ranking officer to be interviewed, if that. Plus the punishments are in general fairly light considering what could have been charged, with one exception who was stupid enough to leave himself quite vulnerable. It's not that I hold US troopers in contempt, I hold the upper level leadership in contempt.

I have to agree with you.

	22-02-2005 00:58									#71
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Oh sure, Its not a war crime, what was I thinking. Just ask Ned, Fez or Oerdin about it.

You apparently can't read or else you'd have seen the numerous posts where I said it was a crime the those responsible have/will go to jail. Much easier to just get on a soap box and ignore inconvient facts though isn't it?

	22-02-2005 01:06									#72
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Though there is a difference here, guys, this is a CIA official going in and ordering people about. We know that the CIA have done some really horrible things in its history. It makes you wonder where they are holding influence. It's a shame that the CIA official hasn't been tried (AFAIK).

	22-02-2005 01:15									#73
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I wonder what the legal process is for going after CIA agents. It seems like the military has been pretty good at going after their people who broke the rules (at least the enlisted ones ) but the CIA might be a different matter.

	22-02-2005 01:25									#74
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IIRC, the Justice Dept. is responsible for prosecuting them.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I miss Ashcroft...

	22-02-2005 01:28									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I can't believe I'm saying this, but I miss Ashcroft...

Has your country sunk that low?

	22-02-2005 01:33									#76
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As Dr. Gonzo would say, this country is going so far to the right that you won't recognize it.

	22-02-2005 01:36									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo As Dr. Gonzo would say, this country is going so far to the right that you won't recognize it.

If it can be of any comfort, France has made quite a reactionary leap as well, since Chirac's re-election. When I read articles that show the Zeitgeist of the late 90ies, I am amazed at how advanced, even futuristic this worldview looks. And it was a mere 5 years ago

	22-02-2005 01:55									#78
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Your views about whats going on in Iraq and claims that China and Russia are socialist just proves how bend you really are.

Actually it just shows you need to take a Poli-Sci class and learn the definition of a socialist government compared to a communist or free market government. If you did that then you might have a leg to stand on.

The defining definition of communism is that the government controls all means of production, socialism difers because it contends that all major means of production should be controlled by the state while minor means of production remain in private ownership. This is supposedly done to more equally share profits and to maintain them for the national well being. A quick look at the large number of state owned industries in both China and Russia shows that they are indeed socialist forms of government.

	22-02-2005 01:59									#79
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Socialism is the worker control of the means of production. That's why I'm an anarchist and (thus) a socialist.

	22-02-2005 02:01									#80
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http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=books&n=507846

Read it, understand it, then we'll talk.

It's a bit old but the price is cheap and I know you commies don't have much spare capital to waste.

	22-02-2005 02:05									#81
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I have plenty of books on socialism already, thanks.

State ownership of large parts of the economy is certainly not the same thing as socialism. What characterizes socialism is worker control.

	22-02-2005 02:08									#82
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Ramo, out of the blue and off topic, where did you get that HST quote?

	22-02-2005 02:09									#83
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Then there was only one real socialist country in all of Europe, Yugoslavia during the Tito period. Not surprisingly, most Poli-Sci professors disagree with you and define the socialist form of government as what I wrote above. Take it up with them.

	22-02-2005 02:10									#84
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One of his ESPN columns:

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/thompson/030203.html

	22-02-2005 02:11									#85
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Ramo, thanks!

sorry for the interruption.

	22-02-2005 02:14									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I have plenty of books on socialism already, thanks. State ownership of large parts of the economy is certainly not the same thing as socialism. What characterizes socialism is worker control.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...efine:SOCIALISM

Read the first definition. 20 definitions listed and not one refrence to workers but nearly every single one mentions government ownership of major means of production.

	22-02-2005 02:17									#87
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quote: Then there was only one real socialist country in all of Europe, Yugoslavia during the Tito period. Not surprisingly, most Poli-Sci professors disagree with you and define the socialist form of government as what I wrote above. Take it up with them.

Depends on how liberally you define worker control. I define more right-wing forms of socialism to have less worker control, which characterizes the Stalinist regimes, and left-wing forms to have more worker control.

If we go by your definition. Marx advocated communism, only as an end to something else which you haven't defined. Further, anarchism wouldn't be a form of socialism. Your definition simply doesn't make any sense, and no poli-sci professor would agree with it.

	22-02-2005 02:19									#88
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quote: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...efine:SOCIALISM Read the first definition. 20 definitions listed and not one refrence to workers but nearly every single one mentions government ownership of major means of production.

That's why you go directly to the source - reading the works of those who created the ideologies of socialism, rather than pulling anonymous quotes from the web.

Edit, actually reading your link, the first definition says:
"a theory or system of social organization by which the major means of production and distribution are owned, manages, and controlled by the government, by an association or workers, or the community as a whole "

	22-02-2005 02:26									#89
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"Worker control" can be interpreted as being all workers controlling all means of production (i.e. the "representative" State controlling the means of production) or as being the company's workers controlling their company and nothing else (communes).

The reason why workers didn't have control on the means of production in the Soviet bloc is because the State didn't care one notch for them. You may think any State will abuse its position that way (I suspect Ramo has such suspicions), or you may think it was a specific problem of the Soviet bloc, and that a State-controlled industry can truly represent the people (I think Azazel would adhere)

	22-02-2005 02:39									#90
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State ownership of the economy is one important aspect of Socialism, but not the only one. It's interesting that the Chinese government is actively promoting capitalism (and very successfully) while running a country which currently has a predominantly state owned economy. Does that make them socialists? I don't think so.