22-02-2005 04:29									#121
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quote: I think Franco claimed to be socialist but then again so did Hitler.

Do you consider Hitler to be a socialist? Except for some wackos, I don't think many do.

quote: It sounds like the main difference we're having here is between theoretical communism (I.E. what Marx envisioned in the 19th century) and the communists & socialists practiced in the 20th century. I imagine there are also differences between the common definition of "socialism" and the academic definition of "socialism".

Yeah, mostly because the so-called common definition is totally and 100% wrong . How can you call the USSR Communism when Marx would have revolted against it?

	22-02-2005 04:35									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yeah, mostly because the so-called common definition is totally and 100% wrong . How can you call the USSR Communism when Marx would have revolted against it?

Well, Phelps is called a Christian

	22-02-2005 04:40									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I think Franco claimed to be socialist but then again so did Hitler. Do you consider Hitler to be a socialist? Except for some wackos, I don't think many do.

Hitler didn't nationalize companies as far as I know but Franco and (I believe) Mussolini & Peron did. I think Spiffor is right that we can't really represent the whole thing in a 2D spectrum.

	22-02-2005 04:41									#124
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quote: It sounds like the main difference we're having here is between theoretical communism (I.E. what Marx envisioned in the 19th century) and the communists & socialists practiced in the 20th century. I imagine there are also differences between the common definition of "socialism" and the academic definition of "socialism".

Practical socialism is not always statist. From hunter-gatherer societies to parts of Spain during the Spanish Civil War, socialism has always had libertarian forms. I'm part of a socialist enterprise myself - a housing co-op, and no state ownership is involved. State ownership of the means of productions isn't necessary or sufficient conditions for socialism; the essential aspect, again, is worker control of the means of production.

quote: I think Franco claimed to be socialist but then again so did Hitler.

No, Franco certainly never claimed to be socialist. Hitler did only insofar as the party that he joined had its roots partially in socialism (and these elements of the NSDAP would be purged shortly afterwards).

	22-02-2005 04:41									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yeah, mostly because the so-called common definition is totally and 100% wrong . How can you call the USSR Communism when Marx would have revolted against it?

Because Marx was a hundred years out of the loop.

	22-02-2005 04:49									#126
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Marx created the damned thing... I think we should look to what he was talking about .

	22-02-2005 13:07									#127
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Why? He was wrong.

	24-02-2005 22:16									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow Why? He was wrong.

Wrong about everything? I doubt it.

Adam Smith was one of the biggest critics of share owned companies. He was convinced they were not the model to follow.

Couple of centuries later, turns out he was "wrong" - but that doesn't stop Wealth of Nations being an important read for economists.

	25-02-2005 01:00									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow Why? He was wrong.

He was wrong about what Communism was? News to me..