21-02-2005 21:14									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Che, which could?

You mean crrowd? That comment was directed at DinoDoc and his fellow right wingers. You're a liberal, despite your economic conservatism.

	21-02-2005 21:17									#92
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Your second link sez the economy's booming, btw. You've PWNed yerself.

	21-02-2005 21:18									#93
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Excuse me, but that report which mentions the poverty figures at the end shows significant GDP growth. How come they did not make it this negative "real growth"? After all, she also mentions the high inflation numbers, which she says is one of the causes of growing poverty (since wages grew more slowly than inflation).

What gives? How come the very articlesa you point to back up Kid's point of significant GDP growth, and not your assertion of economic decline for 2004? And since when does economic growth always equal less poverty? That is based on the distribution of the economy, not its total size.

	21-02-2005 21:19									#94
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Your second link sez the economy's booming, btw. You've PWNed yerself.

However, he did provide statistics backing his claim that poverty has dramatically risen. What good does an economic boom when it's of no use for the peopple?

	21-02-2005 21:23									#95
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quote: Originally posted by GePap How come NO one, not one signel press outfit uses Oerdins "real growth" notion? If no one takes it upon themselves to subtreact, then it makes me deeply question the entire notion of Oerdin's economic "case". Thought I wish el freako was here to set us economically right.

OK, then leave aside the inflation numbers and instead look at the poverty rate. How do you get increasing poverty with 18% yearly economic growth? Unless of course inflation is eatting that growth up.

	21-02-2005 21:24									#96
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Exactly. So Chavez's main economic failing is that while real GDP grew significantly, it was distributed unequally. Which clearly calls for wealth redistribution

	21-02-2005 21:25									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue That was true before Chavez came to power, as the quote shows in context. He hasn't made it any better, true, but he didn't create that poverty level. That's why you can have 17.3% real GDP growth and still have high poverty levels.

Drogue, the 1998 (year before Chavez) poverty rate was was 47% (see first page) while the 2004 poverty rate was around 70%. Any way you look at it the poverty rate is much worse then before Chavez.

	21-02-2005 21:26									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin OK, then leave aside the inflation numbers and instead look at the poverty rate. How do you get increasing poverty with 18% yearly economic growth? Unless of course inflation is eatting that growth up.

As said, it's very easy. It's unequally distributed. The 17.3% growth is in real GDP, but most of this goes to people owning the Oil or the other industries.

	21-02-2005 21:27									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Drogue, the 1998 (year before Chavez) poverty rate was was 47% (see first page) while the 2004 poverty rate was around 70%. Any way you look at it the poverty rate is much worse then before Chavez.

Thats a different claim from saying the economy shrunk.

You can show poverty has grown, but NO ONE has backed your claim of a shrinking economy.

	21-02-2005 21:27									#100
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. The U.S. tried to kill Casto dozens of times. They tried to kill an anti-U.S. contra leader in the 80s. They tried to kill several Sandanista leaders. They killed Lumumba. They had Allende killed. If you're a Latin American leftist, the chaces are good that the U.S. wants you dead.

Granted that during the cold war the US was extremely anti0communist and bullied Latin America on a regular basis. For the last 10-15 years since the cold war ended we
ve had a much better record.

	21-02-2005 21:28									#101
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According to that 2002 Beeb article you've repeatedly linked, Oerdin, the economy is being looted by the elites and there's a lot of corruption in the government (from way back). Chavez is leading an anti-corruption campaign, so that should help push things in the right direction.

Now, applying a little grey matter to the situation, as the oil wealth is owned by a few, and oil is apporximately 80% of the economy, the fact that oil prices rose last year, pouring more money into Venezuela, doesn't mean things got better for ordinary people. Chavez is trying to diversify the economy, so that more people can share in the wealth.

	21-02-2005 21:28									#102
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Thats a different claim from saying the economy shrunk. You can show poverty has grown, but NO ONE has backed your claim of a shrinking economy.

If the economy is booming then how do you get a 2/3 increase in poverty (47% to 71%)?

	21-02-2005 21:30									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Drogue, the 1998 (year before Chavez) poverty rate was was 47% (see first page) while the 2004 poverty rate was around 70%. Any way you look at it the poverty rate is much worse then before Chavez.

I would take issue with the first figure, as the BBC article clearly states before Chavez the poverty rate was 2/3rds, as you have quoted. Yes, the poverty rate has increased under Chavez, but it was very high to start with, and the difference is not as high as you claim.

The main thing is that different groups calculate poverty in different ways. The UN definition is living on under $1 (US) per day, rebased to 2000 dollars. However the article quoting 70% stated extreme poverty and total poverty, which is not necessarily the same as the UN definition. Until you can assert that what both consider is poverty is the same, you cannot compare their figures.

Compare figures from the same provider, so they are calculated in the same way, and then see the difference.

	21-02-2005 21:31									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Granted that during the cold war the US was extremely anti0communist and bullied Latin America on a regular basis. For the last 10-15 years since the cold war ended we ve had a much better record.

Tell that to Aristide and also the Ecuadoran peasantry. Nor should we forget our aiding brutal governments in Columbia and Peru. I'm surprised at you, Oerdin. That's a typical conservative line, "Well, yes, there were problems in the past, but we're better now." We still shield anti-Castro terrorists, including one bastard who bombed an airliner killing 87 people on board. He's walking around Miami even as we type.

	21-02-2005 21:31									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If the economy is booming then how do you get a 2/3 increase in poverty (47% to 71%)?

Different or more accurate measures.

	21-02-2005 21:32									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If the economy is booming then how do you get a 75% increase in poverty (47% to 71%)?

Because the money is not going to the people in the form of wages, but simply means greater receipts for the government. Plus, this is strong growth from the base, whioh was low due to the economic hard times of the previous twio years.

The very article you linked to states that a large cause of the increase in poverty is that wages have lagged well behind inflation.

The Saudi Economy today is bigger than it weas in 1980, yet PCI is less than half- again, Bigger economy does not mean greater wealth for the average joe.

	21-02-2005 21:32									#107
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara According to that 2002 Beeb article you've repeatedly linked, Oerdin, the economy is being looted by the elites and there's a lot of corruption in the government (from way back). Chavez is leading an anti-corruption campaign, so that should help push things in the right direction. Now, applying a little grey matter to the situation, as the oil wealth is owned by a few, and oil is apporximately 80% of the economy, the fact that oil prices rose last year, pouring more money into Venezuela, doesn't mean things got better for ordinary people. Chavez is trying to diversify the economy, so that more people can share in the wealth.

granted the country is corrupt. The oil is all state owned and it is illegal for foreigners or private citizens to own oil production facilities. With controls on capital lows combined with Chavez's own nationalizing of several large businesses in 200 & 2001 (lbusinesses which were owned by vocal anti-Chavez people) it will be hard to effectively diversify the economy.

	21-02-2005 21:33									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue As said, it's very easy. It's unequally distributed. The 17.3% growth is in real GDP, but most of this goes to people owning the Oil or the other industries.

The government owns the oil industry.

	21-02-2005 21:33									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If the economy is booming then how do you get a 2/3 increase in poverty (47% to 71%)?

Have you read any of the posts where we've explained how? It's very easy - it's called an unequal distribution of wealth. The poor get very little, the rich get a lot. The total amount is higher, but the amount given to the poor is lower.

	21-02-2005 21:35									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The government owns the oil industry.

Yes. Your point is? I'm not saying the government's good, I'm saying the economy is growing. Plus there are a lot of other industries, and a lot of people taking a corrupt cut. Chavez isn't responsible for all the corruption.

	21-02-2005 21:35									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The government owns the oil industry.

I think it owns the oil, cuz the Beeb article mentions that it taxes the oil industry.

	21-02-2005 21:36									#112
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yeah, but your side rarely convicts even when no reasonable doubt is left. When Colin Powell admitted that the U.S. was behind the Chilean coup, all the right-wingers jumped up and said he was crazy.

You know I really would like it if you'd simply deal with what I say otherwise I'll start using Agathon's anti-semitism or UR's slavish defense of the PRC against you.

	21-02-2005 21:37									#113
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It would be interesting to factor out the effects of the government owned oil fields and see how the non-oil related economy is doing.

	21-02-2005 21:37									#114
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You know I really would like it if you'd simply deal with what I say otherwise I'll start using Agathon's anti-semitism or UR's slavish defense of the PRC against you.

Like you haven't done that before.

	21-02-2005 21:38									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It would be interesting to factor out the effects of the government owned oil fields and see how the non-oil related economy is doing.

According to the PDF you linked (you only scanned them for poverty related info, admit it), it's growing.

	21-02-2005 21:39									#116
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The Saudi Economy today is bigger than it weas in 1980, yet PCI is less than half- again, Bigger economy does not mean greater wealth for the average joe.

I believe that is the point I was trying to make. Thank you.

	21-02-2005 21:41									#117
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara According to the PDF you linked (you only scanned them for poverty related info, admit it), it's growing.

True, I looked for poverty info. OK, the economy is growing and everyone is worse off. Viva la revolution.

	21-02-2005 21:41									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I believe that is the point I was trying to make. Thank you.

Well, fine, but at least admit that youre oethr initial claim, that the economy shrank in 2004, was wrong.

	21-02-2005 21:42									#119
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Well, fine, but at least admit that youre oethr initial claim, that the economy shrank in 2004, was wrong.

Look above you.

	21-02-2005 21:42									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If the economy is booming then how do you get a 2/3 increase in poverty (47% to 71%)?

Because the bbc article is 2 years old. The economy didn't start to recover until this year. Come on Oerdin.