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chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 21:45 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
True, I looked for poverty info. OK, the economy is growing and everyone is worse off. Viva la revolution.



So what we have left from the OP is that poverty increased from 67% to 71% under Chavez.

Since the poor are Chavez' political base, it only makes since he would want to make more of them.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 21:45 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin


granted the country is corrupt. The oil is all state owned and it is illegal for foreigners or private citizens to own oil production facilities. With controls on capital lows combined with Chavez's own nationalizing of several large businesses in 200 & 2001 (lbusinesses which were owned by vocal anti-Chavez people) it will be hard to effectively diversify the economy.

If you will bother to look at the source of economic data - the CBoV - you will see that oil only accounted for less than 9% of the growth. Most of the Growth was from contruction.

edit: I should have said that 8% growth is because of oil production.

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  Old Post 21-02-2005 21:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


Because the bbc article is 2 years old. The economy didn't start to recover until this year. Come on Oerdin.


Did you even bother to look at the PDF file from 2004? Everyone else has get with the program kid.

laurentius is offline laurentius
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 21:46
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These are the figures I saw

quote:


The Economist country profile: Venezuela
2000 2001 2002 2003

GDP per head ($ at PPP) 5,948 6,161 5,610 5,100
GDP (% real change pa) 3.24 2.79 -8.88 - 9.20
Government consumption (% of GDP) 7.23 8.59 8.06 8.90
Budget balance (% of GDP) -1.65 -4.41 -4.80 -5.80
Consumer prices (% change pa; av) 16.21 12.53 22.43 31.10
Public debt (% of GDP)* 27.01 30.41 38.35 38.60
Labour costs per hour (USD) 3.22 3.44 2.45 2.11
Recorded unemployment (%)** 13.90 13.30 15.90 21.00
Current-account balance/GDP 9.98 1.63 7.80 11.30
Foreign-exchange reserves (mUS$) 13,089 9,239 8,487 16,035



So it seems that Oerdins figure of -9.2 % real GDP change is correct but from 2003. I dont think that is just because some of the mistakes Chavez has made, its got much more complex reasons.

Now Chavez or his team might not be your ideal people in charge of national economy but many of Venezuelas problems are not self inflicted. For a country that has had 1 coup attempt, 1 major natural disaster(mudslide), couple of major strikes, deep social and political divisions with each side afraid of another. It would be a miracle if Venezuelas economics hadent took a blow. Also I dont think looking at conventional economic data in this case isnt very constructive. Chavez is using very unconventional means to redistrubute wealth to the more poor people. He has hundreds of social projects going on in the slums that so far show only as an expense in the budget. The projects include medical assistance and training of local doctors by cubans, free "evening schools" for illiterate children as well as adults, study circles etc. Then theres the land reform. We will see hoe it turns out.

I find it encouraging and fascianating that a latin america leader tries something completely new and radical to help his own people. This time its not done with stalinist or right-wing doctrines but in quite pragmatic way. I'm hopeful that these measures help to educate the Venezuelan people and give them a chance to move to the next level in life. The investors neither in Venezuela or abroad are not seeing this opportunity though. The private media and power elite in many coutries are afraid by the unpredictable stunts Chavez does every once a while. Because of that and the fact that he is Castros friend gives him enormous amounts of negative publicity. Much of it is strongly biased against him.

Last edited by laurentius on 21-02-2005 at 21:55

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


So what we have left from the OP is that poverty increased from 67% to 71% under Chavez.

Since the poor are Chavez' political base, it only makes since he would want to make more of them.


I believe the 1998 poverty rate figure was 47% and Chavez came to power in 1999.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Like you haven't done that before.
No. Only Trotsky's words.

Drogue is offline Drogue
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
I believe that is the point I was trying to make. Thank you.

Actually, your points before were mainly about the growth of the economy, not how it's distributed.

As I said, I would question the poverty figures, but have no trouble believing inequilty and poverty has increased. But if Chavez's main problem is a lack of wealth distribution, that's not a particularly damning account of his policies.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 21:53
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If one wants to see a good leftist president then they just have to look at Brazil's Lula to see a guy who restructures government spending to help the poor but who kieeps a close eye on economics to make sure the economy is run in a sound and conservative manner. He's probably the best leader in Latin America today.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
I believe the 1998 poverty rate figure was 47% and Chavez came to power in 1999.


We've already dispensed with that number as inaccurate.

Drogue is offline Drogue
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
I believe the 1998 poverty rate figure was 47% and Chavez came to power in 1999.

I believe you've missed my post regarding the validity of that data. When you have two poverty stats measured in the same way that show this disparity, it will have some credibility.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 21:55
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


We've already dispensed with that number as inaccurate.


Not according to the CIA. See under economy.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...os/ve.html#Econ

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 21:56 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
If one wants to see a good leftist president then they just have to look at Brazil's Lula


You mean a neo-liberal in leftist clothing?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 21:56 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin


Did you even bother to look at the PDF file from 2004? Everyone else has get with the program kid.


Did you read it? Those figures are from 2003. You have still not provided any stats for poverty to cover the period when the economy started to recover.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 21:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue

Have you read any of the posts where we've explained how? It's very easy - it's called an unequal distribution of wealth. The poor get very little, the rich get a lot. The total amount is higher, but the amount given to the poor is lower.


If the amount given to the poor is less then how do you reconcil Kid & Sava's claim that Chavez is spending more then ever on the poor? That would mean all the increases (and then some) that Chavez has made in assistance to the poor has be lost in other areas.

That doesn't sound like a good way to help the poor.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 22:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious

Did you read it? Those figures are from 2003. You have still not provided any stats for poverty to cover the period when the economy started to recover.


READ THE TITLE ON THE FIRST PAGE! ECONOMIC PERFORMANCE IN 2004!!! It was written three months ago.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 22:04 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin


READ THE TITLE ON THE FIRST PAGE! ECONOMIC PERFORMANCE IN 2004!!! It was written three months ago.


Ah, now you're getting rude again. I've been refraining despite how stupid you have been in this thread. Read the whole section regarding poverty. Those poverty stats are from 2003.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 22:05
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
We've already dispensed with that number as inaccurate. &18
.
If you look at the Extreme poverty rate (less than 1$ per day), it has grown from 18.7% in 1983-1999 to 32.5% in 2003.

This is certainly not something Chavez can be proud of.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 22:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


Ah, now you're getting rude again. I've been refraining despite how stupid you have been in this thread. Read the whole section regarding poverty. Those poverty stats are from 2003.


It specifically and repeatedly says the numbers are from 2004.

Drogue is offline Drogue
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Not according to the CIA. See under economy.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...os/ve.html#Econ

When you compare like with like, and when the numbers are not estimates, then bring the point up.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 22:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue

When you compare like with like, and when the numbers are not estimates, then bring the point up.


Spcifically, what do you claim is so unlike about the poverty rate figures?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 22:16 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin


It specifically and repeatedly says the numbers are from 2004.


READ IT!

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Some things to consider. The country suffered from two years of sharp recession in 2002-2003. According to this article (which I'm sure some will dismiss as being biased), the poverty rate was at 80%. This is not unexpected, recessions hurt people. However, poverty shrank apporximately 13% in 2004, from 80% to 70% (10% is 13% of 80%).

Also consider that while money may not be going directly to the poor in the form of money, the government has created "missions" in poor areas which dispense medical aid and subsidized food, which means that while they are poor, they are not as bad off as before. The government is also turning over government owned land to the poor, so all in all, it's better to be poor in Venezuela today than it was ten years ago.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 21-02-2005 22:17 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin


Spcifically, what do you claim is so unlike about the poverty rate figures?



The CIA is based on an estimate, and only has one figure, whereas the other divided poverty into extreme and not. It seems as though the latter is a more accurate measure.

Drogue is offline Drogue
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Spcifically, what do you claim is so unlike about the poverty rate figures?

What they consider poverty to be. The official figure is an income of below $1 per day, rebased to 2000 USD. That figure is the 32.5% extreme poverty in the article cited, not the 70%. The 70% may be relative poverty, which is those living on half the average income. Thus obviously when GDP rises, it's easy for relative poverty to increase, if wages don't increase at the same time.

That's why you need two sources with the same definition of poverty.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
That's why you need two sources with the same definition of poverty.

I provided it. The extreme poverty was 18.7% in the 1983-1999 period. I don't know what "total poverty" means, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a specific indicator to Venezuela, so I couldn't find a source going in one way or another.

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What does 1983-1999 mean? Which is that figure for? Also, are they rebased to the same amount? While it could be a good comparison, it could be for any year in that period. What the poverty rate in 1983 was doesn't matter for analysing Chavez's policies. The 1999 one does.

If you want to measure Chavez's affect as a whole, have a look at the HDI, it's better than a GDP measure. Being higher on the HDI system than on the per capita GDP, I'd say Venezuala does quite well with what it has, and the GDP growth under Chavez last year is a good sign that financially it's headed in the rigth direction.

techumseh is offline techumseh
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quote:
I can show the US spoke out against the coupe and demanded coupe plotters step down.


Still waiting...

pchang is offline pchang
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  Old Post 22-02-2005 21:05
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http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1996537

A pretty apolitical view (and the only one in this thread)

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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If there are 66 Venezuelans in MLB, then they should open a franchise in Caracas.

pchang is offline pchang
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I think the Dominican Republic is first in line.

 
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