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chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:23
  Old Post 22-02-2005 22:04 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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I don't think there's enough money there to sustain a club. Venezuala could afford one with its oil money.

pchang is offline pchang
King
Cupertino?
Aug 1999
time: 05:23
  Old Post 22-02-2005 22:06
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The expense of the small private army required to provide security might be a huge turn off.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:23
  Old Post 22-02-2005 22:18
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quote:
Originally posted by techumseh

Still waiting...


http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/ops/venezuela.htm

An excellent summation of the coup, who the main plotters were and what their motivations were. As Che pointed out it is true the Bush Administration was slow to react and Condi Rice was even openly anti-Chavez but US did vote in the OAS meeting to condemn the coup plus did call for the coup plotters to restore the elected government. Of course they also called for Chavez to stop changing the constitution but to claim the US caused the coup is wrong.

Last edited by Oerdin on 22-02-2005 at 22:29

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:23
  Old Post 22-02-2005 22:20 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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BS Oerdin. The US is funding the opposition.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:23
  Old Post 22-02-2005 22:24
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Link showing the US is providing meaningful amounts of money to the opposition?

pchang is offline pchang
King
Cupertino?
Aug 1999
time: 05:23
  Old Post 22-02-2005 22:27
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No need for links to back up COMMON KNOWLEDGE

(at least in the kidaverse)

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:23
  Old Post 22-02-2005 22:27
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You expect him to back up his tinfoil claims?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:23
  Old Post 22-02-2005 22:32 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the USAID or the Endowment for Democracy were fuding the opposition, especially the latter. After all, that is its purpose.

Oerdin, the Bush Administration wasn't merely slow. The welcomed the overthrow of Chavez, only backing off when it became apparent that the coup had no chance of succeeding. It's kinda like saying Kennedy opposed the Bay of Pigs invasion because he withheld air support.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:23
  Old Post 22-02-2005 22:34 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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Yes NED is funding it. I don't have time to correct Oerdin again now.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:23
  Old Post 22-02-2005 22:38 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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NED = National Endowment for Democracy, before anyone gets funny ideas about our poster.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:23
  Old Post 23-02-2005 03:00
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
You know I really would like it if you'd simply deal with what I say otherwise I'll start using Agathon's anti-semitism or UR's slavish defense of the PRC against you.


Nice one *******.

Of course everyone that disagrees with Israeli polices or Zionist fundamentalists must be a racist.

You better hope we never meet.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:23
  Old Post 23-02-2005 03:40
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so is this like Ukraine, where Nat. End. for Dem gives nominal amounts to folks for opinion polls, training in normal political techniques, and this is used as an excuse to scream conspiracy?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:23
  Old Post 24-02-2005 00:04 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
so is this like Ukraine, where Nat. End. for Dem gives nominal amounts to folks for opinion polls, training in normal political techniques, and this is used as an excuse to scream conspiracy?


Goes to motive.


Oerdin,

Maybe you don't have a problem with The Economist poll of forcasters as a reliable source. Or maybe you do now. I don't know. You tell me.

Real growth for Venezuela in 2004 was 16.2%.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
King
of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:23
  Old Post 24-02-2005 03:01
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guy, that was the forecast.

venezuelan GDP shrunk by about 9.2% in 2004

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...lient=firefox-a

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:23
  Old Post 24-02-2005 03:10 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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I'm pretty sure that 9.2% contraction was the forecast. See googlenews.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?...r=latin_america
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6919722/site/newsweek/
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1512

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:23
  Old Post 24-02-2005 11:16 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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Increase Your PM Length

Or read the thread.

techumseh is offline techumseh
King
of the frozen North.
Apr 1999
time: 22:23
  Old Post 24-02-2005 12:00 Visit techumseh's homepage!
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Here's a key excerpt from Oerdin's source, showing clear links between the US State Departement and the coup plotters. If the public relationship is so open, then the covert relationship is likely much more intimate.

quote:
The Inter-American Democratic Charter is an Organization of American States' agreement to condemn and investigate the overthrow of any democratically elected OAS member government and, if necessary, suspend the offender's membership. The charter was approved by the 34 OAS member nations in Lima, Peru, on 11 September 2001. Washington's lack of commitment to democracy in the region had been made clear by the response to the Chavez coup attempt. Over the past decade, previous Administrations had reacted promptly in similar situations in Paraguay, Ecuador, Peru and Guatemala -- publicly calling for an adherence to the rule of law. This time around, the US reaction was muted, first accepting Chavez´s ouster, then embracing the coup leaders, and finally accepting the lead of the OAS to condemn the coup. In previous crises, the US rallied other countries around the hemisphere.

In the months before the coup, the US Embassy in Caracas had sought to distance itself from coup rumors. US Ambassador Donna Hrinak, took the unusual step of asking the American military attache to cease contacts with the dissidents. But Washington's signals to Chavez's opponents had been open, and at the highest levels. On 05 February 2002 testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Secretary of State Colin Powell expressed concern "with some of the actions of Venezuelan President Chavez and his understanding of what a democratic system is all about." Similar remarks were made that same day by CIA director George Tenet. The opposition felt it had the green light from Washington to remove Chavez from power.

There were published reports that suggested that the US military provided intelligence or other assistance to the Venezuelan military as it conducted this coup. There were reports that Navy vessels carrying out exercises off Venezuela's Caribbean coast engaged in strategic communications jamming during the days of the coup. Immediately after the ouster, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer suggested that the administration was pleased that Mr. Chávez was gone. "The government suppressed what was a peaceful demonstration of the people," Mr. Fleischer said, which "led very quickly to a combustible situation in which Chávez resigned."

Within hours of the coup, Otto Reich, the assistant secretary for Western Hemisphere affairs, summoned a number of Latin-American ambassadors to his office and told them that Chavez had resigned and he urged them to support the new government. Reich reportedly phoned Venezuelan coup leader Pedro Carmona the day he took over as interim president, pleading with Carmona not to dissolve the National Assembly, which He said would be "a stupid thing to do," and would provoke an outcry. Subsequent reports suggest that this phone call was made by the US ambassador.

Otto Juan Reich, the State Department's assistant secretary for Western Hemisphere affairs, and Rogelio Pardo-Maurer, Reich's counterpart at the Defense Department, met with Venezuelan leaders of the coup during preceeding months. Pardo-Maurer was an aide to the head of the Contras when they were waging their US-backed war against the elected leftwing Sandinista government in Nicaragua. Reich was a key player in the Iran-Contra scandal. In the mid-1980s ran the State Department's Office of Public Diplomacy for Latin America and the Caribbean. Since Reich is a hard-line anti-Castro Cuban immigrant with a long history of covert activity, speculation spread that that he - along with other veteran cold warriors - helped stage-manage the Venezuelan coup.

 
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