22-02-2005 02:32									#1
	Pacification one step closer in Iraq? Tired of ads?

Reuters

quote: Report: U.S. in Secret Talks with Iraqi Insurgents Sun Feb 20, 1:55 PM ET Top Stories - Reuters WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. diplomats and intelligence officers are conducting secret talks with Iraq (news - web sites)'s Sunni insurgents on ways to end fighting there, Time magazine reported on Sunday, citing Pentagon (news - web sites) and other sources. The Bush administration has said it would not negotiate with Iraqi fighters and there is no authorized dialogue but the U.S. is having "back-channel" communications with certain insurgents, unidentified Washington and Iraqi sources told the magazine. The magazine cited a secret meeting between two members of the U.S. military and an Iraqi negotiator, a middle-aged former member of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime and the senior representative of what he called the nationalist insurgency. A U.S. officer tried to get names of other insurgent leaders while the Iraqi complained the new Shi'ite-dominated government was being controlled by Iran, according to an account of the meeting provided by the Iraqi negotiator. "We are ready to work with you," the Iraqi negotiator said, according to Time. Iraqi insurgent leaders not aligned with al Qaeda ally Abu Mousab al-Zarqawi told the magazine several nationalist groups composed of what the Pentagon calls "former regime elements" have become open to negotiating. The insurgents said their aim was to establish a political identity that can represent disenfranchised Sunnis. The White House had no immediate comment on the report. When asked about the contacts, Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel (news, bio, voting record) of Nebraska, a member of both the Senate foreign relations and intelligence committees, said it was important to "reach out" in Iraq. "We've got a very complicated and dangerous situation over there and you are going to have to reach out, you are going to have to develop some relationships and networks," he said on CNN's "Late Edition." Controversial Iraqi politician Ahmad Chalabi said on Sunday the outcome of any negotiations between insurgents and the U.S. military would not be binding for a new Iraqi government. "I know nothing about such negotiations. Those negotiations will in no way bind the elected government of Iraq," he said in an interview with ABC's "This Week." "The issue here is not negotiating with the killers who are killing the Iraqi people."

also


AP - Sunnis Seek Place in New Iraqi Government

	22-02-2005 02:44									#2
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Wow

Maybe the sucess of the elections has actually shown the Sunnis that the past order was gone, and that if they wanted to be present in the new Iraq, they had to play ball.

Like with all other topics that mix the word "diplomacy" and "Iraq", I am very cautious, because there's no way to trust either side not to **** it up, but the mere fact that a backdoor negociation channel is (alledgedly) established is good news. That actually means some Sunnis want to talk, and that some Yanks don't respond by wanting to kill'em all

	22-02-2005 03:33									#3
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Yay, we're turning yet another corner in Iraq...

	22-02-2005 03:36									#4
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Bleh, beat me to ze punch.

	22-02-2005 04:37									#5
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you mean, WE'RE NEGOTIATING WITH TERRORISTS?!?!?!?? OMGOMGOMGOMG BUSH IS TEH APPEASER!!

	22-02-2005 04:43									#6
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It would be nice if they could whittle away the insurgency with a combination of diplomacy and military action. Time will tell if that will happen.

	22-02-2005 04:47									#7
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Many Sunnis believe that they are the majority in Iraq. Will the insurgents demand the right to appoint the majority of delegates to the national assembly?

	22-02-2005 04:51									#8
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The AMS, publicly, was intransigent as ever in yesterday's conference. Dunno how successful these talks will be, but it's good to see that we're finally trying.

	22-02-2005 05:08									#9
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What makes you think the insurgents were willing to talk before getting their asses handed to them militarily and politically?

	22-02-2005 05:42									#10
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How does incessant violence, and a successful Sunni Arab election boycott constitute "getting their asses handed to them militarily and politically?"

And who said that I ever thought such talks would be very successful?

	22-02-2005 05:47									#11
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How does not reaching any of their goals through their violent campaigns, and then realizing after the fact that not only have you alienated yourselves from the rest of your country for no gain, and then on top of that denied yourself the guarunteed seats in a new government that will succeed despite your childish temper tantrum equal anything else but "getting their asses handed to them militarily and politically?"

Successful Sunni Arab election boycott. HA. Priceless. You are correct Ramo, they successfull shot their cause in the head

	22-02-2005 05:52									#12
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No, they shot the moderate Sunni Arabs like Pachachi's and Yawar's cause in the head. The boycott helped to insure that Sunni Arabs wouldn't see themselves represented in the new gov't or the Constitution, adding fuel to the insurgency. They don't want to settle for being a small player in the new gov't, that's the entire point of the insurgency.

	22-02-2005 05:56									#13
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quote: adding fuel to the insurgency

And dooming their population to living in economic depression and political insignificance for then next few decades at least. Sore damn loser. In any case, the most likely reasons some of the insurgent groups are talking is that they see the wind is blowing, and it isn't their direction.

I am pretty sure theire is a rule about using historic revisionism on history a month old Ramo.

	22-02-2005 05:58									#14
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There's a rule about bringing up non-sequiters completely irrelevent to what you're quoting.

The main reason that the insurgent groups are talking is that we rejected trying to talk with them before. See the influence of Chalabi.

	22-02-2005 06:02									#15
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quote: The main reason that the insurgent groups are talking is that we rejected trying to talk with them before.

I will give you a chance to edit that to some sort of coherent statement with meaning. It is just a little to easy to pick on that and you normally do better.

	22-02-2005 06:03									#16
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As for "revisionism," I was saying well before the election that this was the point of the boycott. Hell, there isn't any other logical point to the boycott.

	22-02-2005 06:09									#17
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quote: I will give you a chance to edit that to some sort of coherent statement with meaning. It is just a little to easy to pick on that and you normally do better.

I don't really want to play grammar pedant with you. You can figure it out for yourself.

	22-02-2005 06:14									#18
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quote: Hell, there isn't any other logical point to the boycott.

The answer is easier than that, there is no logical point of the boycott.

quote: I don't really want to play grammar pedant with you

Grammer be damned, that line doesn't mean anything.

quote: There's a rule about bringing up non-sequiters completely irrelevent to what you're quoting.

Thread is about US and insurgents talking about the guerrillas hanging up the towel, then morphed into why the insurgents are talking at all, I give a reason, you ask how this is possible, a give examples. Seems totally relevent to me.

	22-02-2005 06:30									#19
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quote: The answer is easier than that, there is no logical point of the boycott.

Seeing as how it helps to sustain the insurgency, that's nonsense.

quote: Grammer be damned, that line doesn't mean anything.

Again, due to the influence of Chalabi and other folks that refused to compromise with the Ba'athists, the insurgents haven't had the opportunity to have these sorts of talks with us until recently.

quote: Thread is about US and insurgents talking about the guerrillas hanging up the towel, then morphed into why the insurgents are talking at all, I give a reason, you ask how this is possible, a give examples. Seems totally relevent to me.

Let's recap. You were asserting that the insurgents shot themselves in the foot militarily and politically with the boycott. I demonstrated why not, namely that the boycott was the only way that the insurgency could be sustained.

Then you bring nonsense about long-term events which you somehow have a handle on (it's amusing that you know what will happen in Iraq for the next "few decades"), totally irrelevent to the insurgents' political and military status in the current war. That was a nonsequiter.

	22-02-2005 06:48									#20
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quote: militarily and politically

Negative, I said they lost militarily with the insurgency, and lost politically with the boycott. Both are correct. What goal has the insurgency acheived, what goal has the boycott acheived? Endless perpetualtion of the insurgency is not the goal of either. It is to undermine the emerging government and allow for an artificial Sunni hold on power, and it has failed miserably.

	22-02-2005 06:55									#21
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Ramo, Patroklos is an idealogue. He will never sway from his view, no matter what evidence you throw in front of him.

	22-02-2005 06:59									#22
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quote: Negative, I said they lost militarily with the insurgency, and lost politically with the boycott. Both are correct. What goal has the insurgency acheived, what goal has the boycott acheived? Endless perpetualtion of the insurgency is not the goal of either. It is to undermine the emerging government and allow for an artificial Sunni hold on power, and it has failed miserably.

The insurgents have likely nullified the effect of the election in terms of decreasing popular support for the insurgency through the boycott. That means they have not had their asses handed to them politically.

Militarily, they're able to sustain their violence, and even killed 55 people on Saturday. Likewise, militarily.

They haven't won, but they haven't "lost" by any reasonable measure. They could go on for years if they want to.

	22-02-2005 07:02									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It would be nice if they could whittle away the insurgency with a combination of diplomacy and military action. Time will tell if that will happen.

Ain't that how the Brits did it in Scotland?

	22-02-2005 07:07									#24
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quote: They haven't won, but they haven't "lost" by any reasonable measure. They could go on for years if they want to.

Fair enough on some counts, but the boycott was an attempt to make the elected government illegitimate, it failed.

quote: Ramo, Patroklos is an idealogue. He will never sway from his view, no matter what evidence you throw in front of him.

I don't think either of us have provided any actual evidence Crack, back to the kiddie pool with you.

	22-02-2005 07:14									#25
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quote: Fair enough on some counts, but the boycott was an attempt to make the elected government illegitimate, it failed.

It's illegitimate in the minds of Sunni Arabs (see the AMS, for instance), which was their aim.

	22-02-2005 07:15									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos I don't think either of us have provided any actual evidence Crack, back to the kiddie pool with you.

I've read many of your arguments in the past. They're high on opinion, low on substance. This one is no different.

	22-02-2005 07:34									#27
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quote: t's illegitimate in the minds of Sunni Arabs (see the AMS, for instance), which was their aim.

As if the boycott changed that in any way. Of course the Sunni's see it as illigitimate, they have no way of dominating the country through this system.

quote: I've read many of your arguments in the past. They're high on opinion, low on substance. This one is no different.

I can't really say anything bad about your arguments becuase you don't present any, just sad excuses for snide comments that, sadly, I think you might consider clever.

Now like I said, back to the shallow end with you, I think your troll buddies Sava and Tass need help putting on their swimming wings.

	22-02-2005 07:35									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Fair enough on some counts, but the boycott was an attempt to make the elected government illegitimate, it failed.

That was the main goal of the election boycott and the threats to "fill the streets with the blood of voters". The insurgents knew they'd pull in about 10%-15% of the vote so why play a game you're going to lose?

Still, I think you are over playing the importance of the recent election since another election is going to be held in a year. The interum government's job is to write a perminent constitution to replace the one the US/UK wrote, register more political parties, use the recent census data to draw election districts, and hold a vote for a perminent government by next January.

	22-02-2005 07:41									#29
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quote: As if the boycott changed that in any way. Of course the Sunni's see it as illigitimate, they have no way of dominating the country through this system.

Actually, the election would've been seen as far more legitimate if Sunni Arab representation were proportional to their population. If their interests were well-represented in the gov't, that would've dealt the insurgency a major blow. There's still a chance of that happening given the discretion of the national assembly in forming a gov't and Constitution, but I don't see it as all that likely.

	22-02-2005 07:49									#30
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That is the problem with the Sunni, they know they will forever be the minority in anything resembling an honest election. They don't want proportional representation, they want extra.

If they truly wanted proportional rep, they just had to vote.