24-02-2005 23:59									#1
	Taking my Game to the Next Level Remove this text

Hey guys, I'm a long-time casual Civ player. I can win consistently at Monarch and if I played enough games I'd probably win about 50% at the next level. I'm looking to take the next step and have a few questions on how those of you who play at the higher levels get it done. I'm pretty good with REX and I've recently started condensing my city sites for faster development and less corruption. My questions are mostly centered around what else fits into the early game...

1. Do you start your first wars right as you bump up against another civ or do you fill in the available spaces with settlers before pumping resources into your military?

2. Do you build barracks before your first wars?

3. Are there any other improvements you feel must be built in early game? I'm a big proponent of temples to expand my borders but it feels like they slow down my ability to get things cracking militarily. When do the libraries, marketplaces, and courthouses go up?

4. Is there a consensus on high mobility armies vs. stronger but slower armies? I've always relied on horseman, knights, cavalry, and their unique equivalents, but I've noticed some people are high on better attack value + artillery.

5. Do you go through oscillating wars taking a few cities at a time or do you go for broke? Does this differ from early to late game?

6. Obviously, your ability to decimate another civilization depends largely on your ability to avoid revolts in the cities you have just taken. When you're pushing deep into another civ's territory, how many troops do you devote to garrisons in the rear of your offensive? How does that number change as the game goes on?

7. Do you care what other civs think of you? For a long-time I subscribed to the go-it-alone philosophy but in my most recent game I really took the sting out of an AI offensive by bribing an enemy in their rear into an alliance. They never really recovered. Do you foster the good relationships over time or do you just wait till you need them and pay the full price then?

8. What traits have the biggest impact? I'm growing fond of agricultural and have always loved religious and industrious. I saw a few people mention commercial in another thread but I can't really wrap my head around it. I suppose the lower corruption gives you a higher ceiling, but without the productivity advantages you get from some of the other traits you seem less likely to realize that ceiling.

9. Do you stick with a particular government in most games or do you switch back and forth? Do you stay at peace long enough to make a conversion to democracy/republic worthwhile? Do you try to fight short wars in a democracy/republic and end them quick to avoid the weariness? Or do you stick with the war governments? I've always opted for communism in the mid-late game to keep my border cities from being useless. Is there a better way to wage your conquests?

	25-02-2005 00:58									#2
	Re: Taking my Game to the Next Level Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by QuestGAV Hey guys, I'm a long-time casual Civ player. I can win consistently at Monarch and if I played enough games I'd probably win about 50% at the next level. I'm looking to take the next step and have a few questions on how those of you who play at the higher levels get it done. I'm pretty good with REX and I've recently started condensing my city sites for faster development and less corruption. My questions are mostly centered around what else fits into the early game... 1. Do you start your first wars right as you bump up against another civ or do you fill in the available spaces with settlers before pumping resources into your military?

"bump up against"?

If you mean as soon as I meet them? Yes. First war is usually before borders are touching.

quote: 2. Do you build barracks before your first wars?

Yes. Almost always

quote: 3. Are there any other improvements you feel must be built in early game? I'm a big proponent of temples to expand my borders but it feels like they slow down my ability to get things cracking militarily. When do the libraries, marketplaces, and courthouses go up?

Granaries in at least 2 cities. Libs and Markets typically before Temples when not religious. Courts in select cities that'll benefit from them.

quote: 4. Is there a consensus on high mobility armies vs. stronger but slower armies? I've always relied on horseman, knights, cavalry, and their unique equivalents, but I've noticed some people are high on better attack value + artillery.

There's little consensus on anything. I'm a mobile guy myself as well.

quote: 5. Do you go through oscillating wars taking a few cities at a time or do you go for broke? Does this differ from early to late game?

Oscillate early (ancient) if map allows, kill later (late medieval).

quote: 6. Obviously, your ability to decimate another civilization depends largely on your ability to avoid revolts in the cities you have just taken. When you're pushing deep into another civ's territory, how many troops do you devote to garrisons in the rear of your offensive? How does that number change as the game goes on?

Well, under feudalism or communism I find that a few pop rushes take care of allot of this problem...If the city was large when I took it, I'll even throw in a draft.

Only leave enough for MP purposes after resistance. Taking/razing the next city is typically the best prevention for flipping.

quote: 7. Do you care what other civs think of you? For a long-time I subscribed to the go-it-alone philosophy but in my most recent game I really took the sting out of an AI offensive by bribing an enemy in their rear into an alliance. They never really recovered. Do you foster the good relationships over time or do you just wait till you need them and pay the full price then?

Early, or in a weak position I MIGHT care. Otherwise, hell with them.

quote: 8. What traits have the biggest impact? I'm growing fond of agricultural and have always loved religious and industrious. I saw a few people mention commercial in another thread but I can't really wrap my head around it. I suppose the lower corruption gives you a higher ceiling, but without the productivity advantages you get from some of the other traits you seem less likely to realize that ceiling.

Yeah, Agri, Seafaring, Religious, and industrial are the favorites. I avoid Agri at all costs, and try not to pair any of the others. Feels too much like cheating. I'll let one of the corruption freaks explain commercial.

quote: 9. Do you stick with a particular government in most games or do you switch back and forth? Do you stay at peace long enough to make a conversion to democracy/republic worthwhile? Do you try to fight short wars in a democracy/republic and end them quick to avoid the weariness? Or do you stick with the war governments? I've always opted for communism in the mid-late game to keep my border cities from being useless. Is there a better way to wage your conquests?

Republic and Democracy are tools for the builderers. My preferred style of game goes Despot -> Feudalism -> Communism/Fascism. No switches needed. Feudalism has WW, but it also mocks it by allowing MP's.

"better"? Well, numerically republic and Democrazy are most likely better if you can keep the wars short, which really shouldn't be an issue.

	25-02-2005 01:07									#3
	Re: Taking my Game to the Next Level Increase the size of your Attachments

QuestGAV :

1. I tend to want to be able to reach them soon with troops. So it will be after they have towns near me, if not islands map.

2. I build baracks in my troop pumps. I do it right after they are founded.

3. No, it depends on the level and map.

4. It is situational.

5. I will either war till they have had enough and it makes sense to stop or they are gone. It does not matter about the time as much as the maps settings. Is it dom or conquest only or not.

6. This is changing for me. I used to like to drop armies and units to pacifiy a city. Now I prefer to raze it and make a new one.
The lower the level the more you can think about capturing.
Use a flip calc if you are not sure of what it takes.

7. I have no interest in what they think and will hardly talk to them after the middle ages start, but that is just me. They are going to hate me anyway at moist levels as I am on top. At the highest levels, they hate me because I am weaker than them as will not give them what they want.

8. I do not care for Rel and rarely use Ag other than at Sid. I like commercial a lot and even the weakened Industrial trait.
Commerce starts with Alphabet, enough said. It also gives commerce and you can't get enough of that.

9. It depends, but mostly I will make only once switch. If it is a huge map and it is conquest only, then I may make a second. Remember I do not use Rel.
I never use Dem or at least I can't recall using.
I fight long wars often in Rep and have no real issues with WW. It can be managed. The lower the level, the easier it is to handle.
If I am in a game that I will have a large enough empire to use communism, I won't care about corruption. My core can handle everything. The rest are just to allow unit support. I often stick with a no WW government.

	25-02-2005 01:10									#4
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1. Between the two times you mentioned if I have poor quality terriaign.

2. At least one, yup. And the units being used for the war will be vetran

3. I'm a big propoenant of a Granery in your capital as your first improvement (helped along by forest chop) and also making Graneries a high priority on nearby cities with free aquaducts.
If Religious, I'd add Temples to the list as well, but if non-relgious, Temples is one of those improvements that should wait for those planning horse rushing / swords rushing. Even for a peaceful player, a tighter city spacement can greatly reduce the need for Temples for expanions.

Libaries: If Scientific, upon discovery of Literature. It becomes the cultural expanion building for them. For non-Scientific, it's somewhat later, but not much if your not involved in wars.

Marketplaces: If peaceful and not at war, should be built very quickly after you have access to 3+ luxaries in the core.

Courthouses: Varies on city, depends mostly upon current corruption level.

4. High mobility works better against the AI.

5. Whatever I can take that won't drag down into a war of attrition. The momemnt it starts to do so, I'd declare peace, exacting the most the AI will give.

6. In the middle of the war I often leave only 1 unit in the rear of the offenesive city. If it flips, so what! The reinforcements coming up will quickly take it back. I couple this with massive starvation of the conquered provinces when my oppoent has more culture.

7. I don't go out of my way to either help or hurt my relationship with the AIs. If they have a luxary I want, I'll trade for it. If I need a RoP, I'll ask for one. If I have a luxary they both want and can afford, I'll sell it.

8. Agricultural is over the top in Conquests. Industrious used to be so before being cut to a solid pick in Conquests. Commericial / Scientific / Religious are all about even. Seafaring & Expansionistic traights are also very good when properly used. Seafaring is in fact a very popular choice for MP games.

9 A. Switching back and forth is a bad idea for non-religious civs. They really should be only one of Republic / Fedualism / Monarchy. Make your choice and live with it. The general consenious is that under both stock and the AU mod rules is that switching from Republic to Democracy isn't worth it for non religious players. Leaving Democracy mostly for both Religious players and those that were under Monarchy or Fedualism who have now decided that dispite their large empire due to their exntenstive early war mongoling they really want to win via space race / empire wide culture. Similarly, a non religious player switching to either Communism or Fasicsm should stay in that govt the rest of the game and try to win via domination as soon as possible.

B. Fighting wars in Democracy while avoiding the WW issues is easy with proper WW avoidance tactics which are:
1. Do not get involved in a war of attrition.
2. Kill as many units as possible inside your cultural boundary. (Including your new cultural boundary )

Under Republic and Fedualism it's even easier, under these govts WW will evenually hit a plateu and stop increasing. Plus these govts will never collapse from WW.

C. I consider Fedualism a war govt for it's unit supports when the core doesn't have much aquaducts. In the latest AU challenge my one govt change was from Depotism to Fedulaism.

D. It depends upon what your after conquering. If your after winning the game via domination, yes, switch to communism, build the SPHQ, then only CH, PS, and Baracks, and then lots of military units and win. If your after a more limited goal and are really intending to win via a peaceful means, stay under your representive govt during the war.

Last edited by joncnunn on 25-02-2005 at 01:19

	25-02-2005 01:30									#5
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Good answers from three experienced vets.

Let me go at it a different way: What do you think is *NOT* optimal about how you are playing?

	25-02-2005 02:34									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Thanks for all the tips, though I think for the most part they confirm what I was doing, short of going to war too late.

Which brings me to Theseus' question, which I'd answer by saying that I feel like I start too slow and I end up using a huge city base to come back. I think where I'm bogging down is wanting to fill in extra city sites before I start cranking out units. I also think I"m relying too much on Temples. I'm going to cut them out of my early game and focus more on a few granaries & barracks in the core and leave the peripheral cities to fill in the gaps.

I definitely don't do much govt switching when not playing a religious civ, the penalty is just too huge. When I'm religious I do maybe 3-4 switches the whole game (usually despotism -> monarchy -> republic/democracy -> communism when it's time to wrap things up). Do you guys advocate skipping monarchy and heading for either feudalism or republic? It seems to be what you said but it'd be a whole paradigm shift for me as I've always rushed to monarchy after either horses/iron.

Also, where does worker creation fit into your early-game routine? If your settlers are having to pass through cities without roads to them is that a sign I need to mix in a few more workers or do you take the city spots first and mix the workers in later?

What sort of force do you put together prior to declaring war? I realize it's a very subjective question and the answer is very situational. I guess what I'm trying to ask is that do you build up a huge offensive force beforehand and try to steamroll them or declare war with what you have and rely on production that comes during the war?

	25-02-2005 02:43									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I like your style Uno. To hell with them. LoL

Another thing about commerce to me is Iroq and France. Iroq is a great deity or sid civ and France is great for others. The reason I like france is that you can avoid the wonder GA without much effort. Get alpha to start and have improved workers. The UU is not needed until you want it to be, if at all.

The reason I like Iroq for sid is the UU is early to deal with those nasty sid barbs and can be avoided against the AI. You start with Alpha and get a boost in OCN.

	25-02-2005 02:43									#8
	Got spare money?

The most important factor in moving up difficulty levels is getting a handle on the economic system. The rest is all personal preference. Want to win peacefully? With 2x the GNP and MFG of the other civs you'll build the spaceship before another civ gets to the Modern Era. Want to conquer the world? Same situation you'll have 2x the army of all your neighbors.

The biggest factors in economic growth is building cities close, setting up Settler/Worker pumps (with Granaries) and getting a lot of Workers built. For more details on those things check out my "Case For Food" article in my signature.

	25-02-2005 02:53									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

My .02 on Monarchy is to not research it, if you are not going to stay in it for decent amount of time.

Rep comes in the same era as Monarchy, so I would pick one. Picking Monarchy is to decide to be a warmonger IMO. So if that is not your plan, skip it. You won't get the HG, but so what?

To wait for Feudalism is a long time, I would not be in favor of that. If you are able to research it first without either of the other two forms of government, you need to move up a level or two.
IOW being in despotism and still out researching all the AI's means the game is too easy for you.

	25-02-2005 03:24									#10
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A lot depends upon the situation on war. I've played some games where I didn't go to war a single time. (Space ship) In these cases, by the end of REX I had either a very high quality land [somewhat small, the massive amount of rivers made up for it] , or more typicaly somewhat more than my fair share of good land. (Agressive REXing)

Emperor level and above will usally involve falling behind the AI initally but catching up later, the main difference as level increases is it takes even longer to catch up. Plus less margin for mistakes.

Republic is for when you are planning to be basically peaceful in early middle ages. (By middle of the middle ages, Republic should have enough aquaducts and Market Places up to start supporting war mongolging.) In Vanilla, it usually took until a couple of techs into the middle age for Republic to be viable. Under stock Conquests rules it's fresh water dependant. If you start in a river valley, it can be beelined to. Without fresh water though, it's going to be a long while waiting for a combo of Market Places and Aquaducts. (Not quite as long for Agricultrual civs) Under current AU mod, it can be switched to earlier than in stock.

Between Monarchy and Fedualism both are for when your planning extenstive wars, the former is prefered when you have a bunch of natural aquaducts in your core, and the later prefered when you don't.

Agricutural civs should probably be avoiding Fedualism because they are canceling out Agricultural's main strength if they aren't building Aquaducts.

A lot of players advocate forming worker factories. Get a city up to 5 fpt & 10 spt and produce a worker every single turn. (With a granery and also size 6 or smaller)

Myself though, I let the new cities build their own workers, usally as their first or second build. (Depends upon the shield vs food situation.)

I want one stack big enough to take a city or two with no serious trouble. If the AI is still REXing, it doesn't need to be particularly big. Most cities will be producing additional military units. Post AI-REX, the number of units you need will increase. I'm not about to give the AI advance warning, I won't declare war until my forces are ready to cross the border the same turn.

quote: Originally posted by QuestGAV Thanks for all the tips, though I think for the most part they confirm what I was doing, short of going to war too late. Which brings me to Theseus' question, which I'd answer by saying that I feel like I start too slow and I end up using a huge city base to come back. I think where I'm bogging down is wanting to fill in extra city sites before I start cranking out units. I also think I"m relying too much on Temples. I'm going to cut them out of my early game and focus more on a few granaries & barracks in the core and leave the peripheral cities to fill in the gaps. I definitely don't do much govt switching when not playing a religious civ, the penalty is just too huge. When I'm religious I do maybe 3-4 switches the whole game (usually despotism -> monarchy -> republic/democracy -> communism when it's time to wrap things up). Do you guys advocate skipping monarchy and heading for either feudalism or republic? It seems to be what you said but it'd be a whole paradigm shift for me as I've always rushed to monarchy after either horses/iron. Also, where does worker creation fit into your early-game routine? If your settlers are having to pass through cities without roads to them is that a sign I need to mix in a few more workers or do you take the city spots first and mix the workers in later? What sort of force do you put together prior to declaring war? I realize it's a very subjective question and the answer is very situational. I guess what I'm trying to ask is that do you build up a huge offensive force beforehand and try to steamroll them or declare war with what you have and rely on production that comes during the war?

	25-02-2005 03:30									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Monarchy may be worth researching even if not planning on switching to it if your planning on building the Hanging Gardens. The AI charges an arm and a leg for govt techs.

It's actually not all that long a wait for Fedualism, if your bypasing all the optimal techs, especally in the AU mod which features one less required tech. Research or trade for the other required techs before you finish reseraching Philosphacy 1st in the world and you can even pick Fedualism as your free tech. This is also easier to do in the AU mod than stock because the AI science preferences are more spread out.

I won a domination victory in 590 AD with the AU Mod, largely thanks to direct Despotism to Fedualism. (And lots of wars)

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 My .02 on Monarchy is to not research it, if you are not going to stay in it for decent amount of time. Rep comes in the same era as Monarchy, so I would pick one. Picking Monarchy is to decide to be a warmonger IMO. So if that is not your plan, skip it. You won't get the HG, but so what? To wait for Feudalism is a long time, I would not be in favor of that. If you are able to research it first without either of the other two forms of government, you need to move up a level or two. IOW being in despotism and still out researching all the AI's means the game is too easy for you.

	25-02-2005 03:59									#12
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Between Monarchy and Fedualism both are for when your planning extenstive wars, the former is prefered when you have a bunch of natural aquaducts in your core, and the later prefered when you don't. Agricutural civs should probably be avoiding Fedualism because they are canceling out Agricultural's main strength if they aren't building Aquaducts.

Some of us would disagree with that point on Feudalism, but it ends up a matter of extreme unusual style.

I've never understood the whole fascination with keeping cities under 7 for Feudalism, though. Let em grow! Border, hopelessly corrupt, and conquered towns will provide the unit support you need. You just got to keep feeding that Feudalism monster more (conquered, and pop rushed into submission/unitsupport) small cities to keep it going and let the core grow.

	25-02-2005 04:49									#13
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Personally I always go Despotism -> Republic. In Conquests you have to wait until you get 4-5+ cities over size 7 and a few Markets to switch so you don't drive yourself into the ground economically (it's very easy to make LESS money switching to Republic if you do so too early).

Even for warmongering Republic is fine, as long as you only conduct blitzkriegs and never get bogged down. But if you plan properly on the economics side, you should never be in that situation.

	25-02-2005 05:02									#14
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quote: Originally posted by QuestGAV Thanks for all the tips, though I think for the most part they confirm what I was doing, short of going to war too late. Which brings me to Theseus' question, which I'd answer by saying that I feel like I start too slow and I end up using a huge city base to come back. I think where I'm bogging down is wanting to fill in extra city sites before I start cranking out units. I also think I"m relying too much on Temples. I'm going to cut them out of my early game and focus more on a few granaries & barracks in the core and leave the peripheral cities to fill in the gaps.

Play AU 506...

quote: I definitely don't do much govt switching when not playing a religious civ, the penalty is just too huge. When I'm religious I do maybe 3-4 switches the whole game (usually despotism -> monarchy -> republic/democracy -> communism when it's time to wrap things up). Do you guys advocate skipping monarchy and heading for either feudalism or republic? It seems to be what you said but it'd be a whole paradigm shift for me as I've always rushed to monarchy after either horses/iron.

I'd first try to get down to no more than two switches, even as REL. Don;t listen to what these guys are saying about "always republic" or "never demo"... the decision rests ENTIRELY on the strategy for a given game.

quote: Also, where does worker creation fit into your early-game routine? If your settlers are having to pass through cities without roads to them is that a sign I need to mix in a few more workers or do you take the city spots first and mix the workers in later?

Emphasis added... that is *BAD*. BADBADBAD. If you are not getting roads up to your core cities, then you can't possibly be properly improving terrain, or connecting to resources, not to mention the time delay in your Settlers' wanderings.

quote: What sort of force do you put together prior to declaring war? I realize it's a very subjective question and the answer is very situational. I guess what I'm trying to ask is that do you build up a huge offensive force beforehand and try to steamroll them or declare war with what you have and rely on production that comes during the war?

Again, read some of the AU 506 threads, and take a hand at it yourself.

Also, check the "Must Read" thread at the top of this forum, and pay particular attention to "Timeline for the ultra-early Archer rush" and "Ancient Era Warfare".

	25-02-2005 23:46									#15
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The AU suggestion made way too much sense to me Theseus, though I decided to start with AU 101... which coincidentally also has a strong focus on early war.

I'm in position to win the game, it's about 1600 right now and I think I'll have won by 1700. While it's probably not nearly as early as many of you would have pulled it off I was able to integrate alot of this advice to solid effect. One concern I had is that the game was created during the vanilla Civ3 era... obviously there are some rules differences but from my recollection the biggest difference between vanilla and the expansions was a much more aggressive AI. I may not have this much luck at Emperor in C3C. I'll post over in the AU section about that.

I did go straight to Republic and it felt slow and I wasn't really in an economic position to make the switch. I stuck with it but I'm still battling budget problems. I think this is largely due to the lack of army support in Republic for vanilla Civ3. I was able to combat WW effectively though and I'm much more confident going forward that I can skip Monarchy and wage war in Republic.

Integrating more early workers obviously made a difference in getting settlers where they were going too. I think the most dramatic difference though was on conquered cities... having more workers let me get them connected quickly so that I could defend & reinforce them. I'm still not sure I'm making enough but I'm now convinced enough of their value to start making less settlers.

Skipping early temples made a big difference. The biggest roadblock was getting to astronomy so that I could find the other landmasses.

I'm now in the mid-game with massive production advantages where I'm alot more comfortable. My economy isn't where I'd like it to be but I'll chalk that up to the higher level.

	26-02-2005 01:15									#16
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You asked:
1. Do you start your first wars right as you bump up against another civ or do you fill in the available spaces with settlers before pumping resources into your military?
I trade. especially techs, also since I usually have the best maps, I sell those for massive profits. I put two def. units into each city and move them to a military city as I build barracks and move to veteran troops.



2. Do you build barracks before your first wars?

Barracks are low on my list at first, they come right before courthouses which are at the bottom of my list at first.

3. Are there any other improvements you feel must be built in early game? I'm a big proponent of temples to expand my borders but it feels like they slow down my ability to get things cracking militarily. When do the libraries, marketplaces, and courthouses go up?
I build tech imporvements first, then markets banks and such, happiness are last. I try to build every wonder I can, just so I have it and no one else can use it


4. Is there a consensus on high mobility armies vs. stronger but slower armies? I've always relied on horseman, knights, cavalry, and their unique equivalents, but I've noticed some people are high on better attack value + artillery.

Stronger is better. It's tedious to fight cosntantly pouring troops into a city while the enemy heals and rebuilds.

5. Do you go through oscillating wars taking a few cities at a time or do you go for broke? Does this differ from early to late game?

I go for broke. I figure, you make'em mad now they're gonna be mad at you for the rest of the game. Take'me out!

6. Obviously, your ability to decimate another civilization depends largely on your ability to avoid revolts in the cities you have just taken. When you're pushing deep into another civ's territory, how many troops do you devote to garrisons in the rear of your offensive? How does that number change as the game goes on?

Same as my cities. I leave two troops and whoever's wounded. The revolt will go away eventually.

7. Do you care what other civs think of you? For a long-time I subscribed to the go-it-alone philosophy but in my most recent game I really took the sting out of an AI offensive by bribing an enemy in their rear into an alliance. They never really recovered. Do you foster the good relationships over time or do you just wait till you need them and pay the full price then?

I coudl give a rip about how they like me. I'm usually the strongest bully on the block and when they threaten me, I go into war mode.

8. What traits have the biggest impact? I'm growing fond of agricultural and have always loved religious and industrious. I saw a few people mention commercial in another thread but I can't really wrap my head around it. I suppose the lower corruption gives you a higher ceiling, but without the productivity advantages you get from some of the other traits you seem less likely to realize that ceiling.

I like scientific and industrious. You climb the tech tree faster and build quicker.

9. Do you stick with a particular government in most games or do you switch back and forth? Do you stay at peace long enough to make a conversion to democracy/republic worthwhile? Do you try to fight short wars in a democracy/republic and end them quick to avoid the weariness? Or do you stick with the war governments? I've always opted for communism in the mid-late game to keep my border cities from being useless. Is there a better way to wage your conquests?

I go straight for democracy by way of Republic. I found I can wage soem small wars under democracy without too much problem. I once had a major revolt due to war weariness and went into anarchy but i can't remember if that was Civ II or Civ III

Happy hunting

	26-02-2005 02:15									#17
	Re: Taking my Game to the Next Level Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I might be repeating some things. Oh well...

quote: Originally posted by QuestGAV 1. Do you start your first wars right as you bump up against another civ or do you fill in the available spaces with settlers before pumping resources into your military?

I fill available land first. I go bonking heads if I feel my early expansion was not enough. In general this happens if my empire is too small to sustain a tech lead.

quote: Originally posted by QuestGAV 2. Do you build barracks before your first wars?

The deal is simple: all unit-building cities should get Barracks before building units. I usually try to get them up quickly in my first or second city (the one with less food). The reduced casualties of Veterans more than make up for the cost of this building.

quote: Originally posted by QuestGAV 3. Are there any other improvements you feel must be built in early game?

Granaries rule. They make your civ grow like crazy, allowing more Settlers and Workers. Then Barracks for unit-cranking cities. Then Libraries, Markets, Courthouses, the order depending on the game. Libraries first if playing Scientific. Markets first, if lots of luxuries available. Courthouses first in very bad cities (around 50% and more corruption).

quote: Originally posted by QuestGAV 4. Is there a consensus on high mobility armies vs. stronger but slower armies?

Usually I want Armies as fast as possible. But, defensive Armies are awesome when mounting sea invasions, or defending choke points.

quote: Originally posted by QuestGAV 5. Do you go through oscillating wars taking a few cities at a time or do you go for broke? Does this differ from early to late game?

No. I initiate very few wars, and those often end in the extinction of some people. However, if someone asks for trouble (i.e. declares on me), he will get kicked, and he will lose cities. This depends heavily on the map, as I prefer random ones.

quote: Originally posted by QuestGAV 6. Obviously, your ability to decimate another civilization depends largely on your ability to avoid revolts in the cities you have just taken. When you're pushing deep into another civ's territory, how many troops do you devote to garrisons in the rear of your offensive? How does that number change as the game goes on?

My civ usually has a good culture. I make sure all conquered cities have the whole city radius inside my borders (plant new cities, or buy cheap cultural buildings). I add 2-4 units to keep them safe. This is usually enough to stop any flipping.

If you have less culture, or cannot move borders by culture rushes, consider razing cities, or starving them to 1 population after conquered. This is ugly, but it works.

If you can wipe out a whole civ quickly, you need no help against flips, because none can occur. This is difficult to do, but the effect is a 100% certainty.

quote: Originally posted by QuestGAV 7. Do you care what other civs think of you? Do you foster the good relationships over time or do you just wait till you need them and pay the full price then?

I care for them, I nurture them. Then, I suck away all their blood cash.

Deals last 20 turns in Civ3. Never, ever deliberately break one. Except if you have a very, very good (read: lucrative) reason.

quote: Originally posted by QuestGAV 8. What traits have the biggest impact?

As far as I can tell, Agricultural rocks. Other that that, I like Industrious, Commercial, and Scientific. But Agricultural rocks.

quote: Originally posted by QuestGAV 9. Do you stick with a particular government in most games or do you switch back and forth?

I play rather peaceful games, with wars very time-limited. For this style, Republic wins most bets. If my empire ever gets that big, I might switch to Communism (yes, even at peace!). Democracy is fine if playing Religious, and only then.

	26-02-2005 04:16									#18
	Re: Taking my Game to the Next Level Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by QuestGAV 1. Do you start your first wars right as you bump up against another civ or do you fill in the available spaces with settlers before pumping resources into your military?

It all depends on how quickly I meet my neighbors and the situation when I do. My first war generally happens as soon as I think I've got my flanks secured against the target's exploring warriors. Nothing worse than a lone warrior sneaking up on you and taking an undefended town before you can get somebody to it.

quote: 2. Do you build barracks before your first wars?

Other than my first few warriors, I build barracks before building units, so yes.

quote: 3. Are there any other improvements you feel must be built in early game? I'm a big proponent of temples to expand my borders but it feels like they slow down my ability to get things cracking militarily. When do the libraries, marketplaces, and courthouses go up?

As UnO said, a couple of early granaries. I generally let temples go until I can no longer cure unhappiness by building settlers.

quote: 4. Is there a consensus on high mobility armies vs. stronger but slower armies? I've always relied on horseman, knights, cavalry, and their unique equivalents, but I've noticed some people are high on better attack value + artillery.

I like a mix. Mobile forces are great for diverting from the main attack and taking some outlying towns, but I usually want a strong SOD with swords and cats, in the ancient era, for hitting the enemy's core.

quote: 5. Do you go through oscillating wars taking a few cities at a time or do you go for broke? Does this differ from early to late game?

When I played with culture flips turned on, I felt like I had to eliminate the civ ASAP to avoid losing cities back to him. With them off, I'll spare an enemy once I see that I've broken him, and come back later to finish him off once he no longer serves a purpose.

quote: 6. Obviously, your ability to decimate another civilization depends largely on your ability to avoid revolts in the cities you have just taken. When you're pushing deep into another civ's territory, how many troops do you devote to garrisons in the rear of your offensive? How does that number change as the game goes on?

Only enough to hold a town the enemy could strike that turn. I fix unhappiness with specialists in conquered cities, and clean up resistance when I have spare units, for instance a cav that needs to heal for a couple of turns.

quote: 7. Do you care what other civs think of you? For a long-time I subscribed to the go-it-alone philosophy but in my most recent game I really took the sting out of an AI offensive by bribing an enemy in their rear into an alliance. They never really recovered. Do you foster the good relationships over time or do you just wait till you need them and pay the full price then?

I'll do the bare minimum to maintain good relations, i.e. establishing embassies, trying to regularly trade, etc. In other words, I keep an eye toward good relations, but don't go out of my way to keep them polite, since their turn at the end of my sword will come eventually, and after that they'll be furious with me.

quote: 8. What traits have the biggest impact? I'm growing fond of agricultural and have always loved religious and industrious. I saw a few people mention commercial in another thread but I can't really wrap my head around it. I suppose the lower corruption gives you a higher ceiling, but without the productivity advantages you get from some of the other traits you seem less likely to realize that ceiling.

Agricultural is great, and so is seafaring, depending on the map. I like commercial because it gives me a larger core with which to build my war machine. On huge maps, that can be a pretty hefty advantage. Expansionist, religious and scientific are nice, but I can live without them, too. Industrious, post-nerf, is still a pretty strong trait, especially for someone who plays most of the game in republic, like I do (freeing up unit support space by requiring fewer workers).

quote: 9. Do you stick with a particular government in most games or do you switch back and forth? Do you stay at peace long enough to make a conversion to democracy/republic worthwhile? Do you try to fight short wars in a democracy/republic and end them quick to avoid the weariness? Or do you stick with the war governments? I've always opted for communism in the mid-late game to keep my border cities from being useless. Is there a better way to wage your conquests?

Unless I'm religious, I get into republic and stay there.

	26-02-2005 07:01									#19
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Good for you on starting the AU games, QG!!! Don't worry about them being older... I played the first several last fall and had quite a bit of fun (again).

Some random comments:

* I still like oscillating wars, and really have not had any problems with CFs.

* When I do go on a rampage of a given AI civ, to the death, I prolly overkill it... 100 offensive units seems like such a nice round number, whether that be Swords, Knights, Cavs, or Tanks (or their UU equivalent). Or maybe 200 is better...

* On the other hand, I once got infected with something I call 'Arrianitis'... symptoms include a rabid desire for all 8 lux resources, TOTAL build-outs of all cities whether native or captured, polite or gracious relations with as many AI civs as possible (until the feel the sword), etc. My own twist is that, yes, I must own all the GWs, but I don't mind capturing them (maybe prefer it). Ultimate Power (TM).

* Also, my citizens should be HAPPY, goddmmit to hell!!! So, yeah, I still build just about all the happiness improvements... I especially prioritize the early ones, i.e., Temples and Colosseums, if I am short on lux resources at the beginnning.

* And one more thing: Republic SUCKS!!!!

	26-02-2005 07:26									#20
	Remove this text

Well, sure, if you plan on drawing your wars out as long as possible.

On huge maps, I find that by the time I'm in the industrial age, my empire has long since passed the "Communism Inversion Point", where it's just so big that every city's rank, under communism, is greater than the OCN. I find a highly productive core more useful than 300 semi-productive cities and my two capitals, or at least easier to manage . Republic lets me a) take advantage of the commerce bonus, b) keep my core churning out tech and units like there's no tomorrow, c) avoid what invariably becomes a 7-9 turn anarchy, and d) make war pretty much at will, especially if I can catch AI units in my territory and provoke a declaration.

On your other points, as we've discussed before, the 8 luxury thing is key. Control four or more organically, and have the others through trade, at least, and you'll be unstoppable. I've broken myself of the total buildout thing, but I do try to get all the first tier improvements in every town. Oh, and captured wonders rock. All the benefit, none of the work, and all the fun of getting them.

	27-02-2005 00:18									#21
	Tired of ads?

Well, I don't play huge maps. I just ran a test on one for a few turns to see what reserach rate was like.

I do think that if you have 300 cities even on huge maps, it doesn't really matter what your govt is, the game is already over, you just need to finish the quest for domination.

	27-02-2005 00:25									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, this was part of the AU Mod 506. Size 6 cities produced my Knights at a sufficent rate. I also played that with the no library rule, so science would have sucked even if I let the core grow.

I was only using half the number of units that Fedualism allowed at the end, so yes I could have safety built aquaducts in what I considered the core.

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Some of us would disagree with that point on Feudalism, but it ends up a matter of extreme unusual style. I've never understood the whole fascination with keeping cities under 7 for Feudalism, though. Let em grow! Border, hopelessly corrupt, and conquered towns will provide the unit support you need. You just got to keep feeding that Feudalism monster more (conquered, and pop rushed into submission/unitsupport) small cities to keep it going and let the core grow.

	28-02-2005 12:44									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

In my opinion, good trading techniques will cover a multitude of small errors, get to meet the other civs, trade techs, luxuries etc, don't break them, initiate wars against civs you do not trade with only. I do not go for ICS, too many cities make game take too long to play, but even on demigod I can trade my way to the tech lead early in the medieval age and begin to dominate. Fight as much as you want if you are a warmonger, but make it easy for yourself, pull other civs into the war, 2 can pull down a civ much quicker than 1, and civs at war always learn slower, so keep them fighting each other with appropiate alliances

	01-03-2005 06:28									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

My lone real trouble at emperor so far is how much early wars are dragging down my economy. I'm eating a tech disadvantage with lots of mounted warriors, but it seems like a bad habit to get into. I tend to punctuate my wars with a short flurry of improvement building, which seems more efficient than intermixing improvements with reinforcements during a war. How do you guys handle that?

The lead starts to develop fairly early, soon after I start pumping out my horsemen-type units. By the time I have achieved my goals in whatever war I'm in the majority of the AI civs are up 3-4 techs. I've got enough cities that I should be able to close the gap eventually, but it'll sure put a crimp on expansion at least till Cavalry (and it's a fairly long jump from their feudalism to me putting together a decent amount of cav).

To some extent, I think I could reduce this by micromanaging my workers better and anticipating what and where I'll need them rather than just improving nearby tiles that look good. But I don't think it'll close the whole gap. Any tips on managing economic/scientific growth during the early game for a smoother transition?

	01-03-2005 06:49									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Do you have any save files you can post here? It's easier to give suggestions if we're able to see exactly what you're doing.

	01-03-2005 11:10									#26
	.sav file Get a bigger avatar today!

Here you go. From what I see I'll probably win the game but I'll be essentially spinning my wheels until Steam Power/Industrialism and start cranking out hordes of cavalry to overpower people.

I've been in my current war a bit too long and the Byzantines have reinforced their cities and I'm in the dreaded "war of attrition" that jon warned me against earlier. They've got a couple juicy cities nearby and I just haven't been able to resist the temptation to throw more MWs at them. At the previous level the AI would have run out of steam by this point in a war but here they appear to be holding me steady, or at least making me pay dearly for my advances.

So? Do I go for the kill with the Byzantines? Take an equal peace and go balls-out economy & culture? Take peace with the Byzantines and grab that lovely river valley from the Russians? Where am I currently deficient?

grr... can't attach it. File size is 508kb

	01-03-2005 11:16									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Zipped it up and got it down to 453kb.

Attachment: hiawatha of the iroquois.zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	01-03-2005 12:27									#28
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I feel like I'm spamming in my own thread here, but I played it out a bit further tonight to see what happens. I took Trebizond and made peace with the Byzantines. I closed the tech gap with some aggressive trading... I'm really starting to see the benefit of being proactive about checking what's available for deals each turn. I may not have closed the research gap, but I'm binging on improvements now so that should help.

My downfall for this game may be my slow cultural start. I'll try and close that gap too but I may simply have ignored it for too long. Any future aggression is going to be curtailed by the extreme number of forces I'll have to use to prevent CFs. It should be interesting to see whether I can make my invasions stick or whether we'll simply toss them back and forth.

	01-03-2005 21:29									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Try massive starvation of captured cities.
And also try not garrisioning at all the high flip possiblities but instead having a couple of units in the next tile over.
Who cares if such a city flips, you take it right back.

	01-03-2005 22:19									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

To tell you the truth, I really hate seeing a map in the 400AD time frame and maybe a third of the map has been exposed.

You are missing contacts with about 8 civs, this is a big problem.

I also do not like seeing so much unroaded territory at this stage.

Nearly all towns have a barracks and are making troops. You will not be able to support them for long and most will have to abandoned, unless you commit to total war and stop researching.

I would be very careful about going with Monarchy on a huge map that is pangea. It will be very expensive to maintain all the troops needed to MP all your towns and slow down your empire.

This is a strategy for even higher levels or all out warmonggering.

You can trade Eng to Zulu for Feudalism and stop researching. This will raise cash for upgrades and steals (if you cannot extort techs).

You will be hard pressed to get Sun or Leos with the capitol you have. It has no BG tiles and is size 8 with no prebuild. It will cost a fortune to upgrade to pikes and knights and you must or face big problems soon.

The Ai's will probably form alliances in the next war and you have nothing to offer to get friends. This means you will have to face multiple enemies and be in big trouble, unless you can smash someone quickly.