04-03-2005 22:22									#61
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quote: Originally posted by N35t0r I've just finished reading a historic novel about Alexander The Great, and they are called Heitaroi.

All my sources say hetairoi

	04-03-2005 22:34									#62
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quote: Originally posted by KASHANKA Argyraspides, Chalkaspides and Leukispides weren't just ordinary Phalangistes. Normal Phalangistes were mercenaries or recruits, while Agryraspides were full time regular troops, always at the side of the king. They were a sort of his personal guard. While at peace, on the move or in "police actions" they were armed like hoplites (big shield, short spear), but in major battles they fought like phalangistes. This gave me an idea... maybe I should include the Agryraspides as a very good, but REALLY expensive unit?

Good idea. You have Hetairoi (elite companions) representing Macedonian Cavalry, even though many other regiments existed in the Successor armies, so why not Argyraspides for the Seleucids and Chalkaspides for the Macedonians, both as elite/expensive units, and a generic/cheaper Levy or mercenary phalanx unit available to all Hellenistic civs. After all Polybius tells us that the Seleucid phalanx at Raphia in 217BC was 10000 strong, many of whom constituted the Argyraspides. They were, as you say the elite 'standing army' phalanx unit of the Seleucid army, as were the Chalkaspides for the Antigonid army, with the remainder of the phalanx made up of levies or mercenaries.

	04-03-2005 22:42									#63
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I may be wrong on this, but I believe that until Raphia (217BC). The Ptolemiac dynasty relied on Pezhetairoi recruited from colonists or even possibly Macedonia. They had a manpower crunch by the late 200's, so they trained Egyptian peasants to fight as a Macedonian phalanx. The big question mark at Raphia was how well these Egyptian phalanxes would hold up against Antiochus' Hellenistic phalanxes.

In the event, they fought well. This newly discovered skill at arms led to a nationalist movement that IIRC eventually tottered the Ptolemaic dynasty.

quote: Saying all this I belive that geographical restriction will not be much needed, as Mesopotamia, Minor Asia and Syria will simply be the "high shield" regions in my scenario, as they were in history.

That should do it. On possibility would be to rename one of the plant improvements to 'Greek Colonists'. Do you think that Western Greek colonies had the potential to make such units, if conquered by the Seleucids?

Thanks for the corrections, Fairline. Floating Illyrians, indeed! Had a feeling that you were well-versed on this. So, the git goofed about Getae and Galati?

quote: You know you want to make that scenario really

No, I'd say Kashanka is doing a great job on this closely related topic already!

	04-03-2005 22:51									#64
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Boco, do you have any sources on the Ptolemaic army? I only have Sekunda's speculations on the late Ptolemaic army post 168BC, and I'd be interested to read up on earler stuff.

Kashanka does indeed seem to be doing a great job on the research for this scenario - I'm really looking forward to it Now if only she had ToT ; I've got some phalanx graphics with Sarissai that are the right length......

	04-03-2005 23:36									#65
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He is right on the Ptolemaic army indeed.
Before the battle of Raphia they only used mercenaries as phalangistes. Due to the great Seleucid threat Ptolemaios IV was forced to use locals as phalangistes (they fought rather well), although I belive they weren't "Egyptian peasants" like Boco said, but rather greeks living in Egyptian cities. Anyways, this isn't such an important issue here.

The Seleucid elite infantry was called Argyraspides (Silver shields), the Antigonid elite was called Chalkaspides (Bronze shields) or Leukaspides (White shields), The Egyptian elite was either called the Royal Guard, or simply the Hypaspistes (shield carriers).

As of now I'm considering 2 options:

A) Having 3 national (Ptolemaic, Macedonian and Seleucid) phalanx units and 1 Argyraspides unit.
B) Having 1 non-national Phalanx unit and 3 national elite units (Argyraspides, Leukaspides and Chalkaspides).

I'm still thinking, but due to the graphics I now have, I'm leaning to option A.

Oh, nad by the way. I checked, its Hetairoi not Heitaroi. My bad I guess, I know most of the terminology in Polish therefore I'll try to stick to original Greek and Latin names as ofthen as possible. If you see any spelling mistake I make - don't hesitate to tell me.

Last edited by KASHANKA on 04-03-2005 at 23:52

	05-03-2005 01:29									#66
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A new question just popped into my mind:

Should there be pollution or not?
If yes then I would call it "disease" or "plague". This ofthen happened in ancient times.
But the question is a bit different: "Do we really need plagues in this scenario?"

Another thing is the "spaceship". Wars of the mediterrean used "caravel fleet" as spaceships, but I don't think this is a good idea.

	05-03-2005 05:25									#67
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"Often"