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KASHANKA
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It is? Where can I get it?
I buy most of the games from the local Empic store.
(I live in Warsaw)
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KASHANKA
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My light infantry idea:
I've been thinking, how many players actually use light infantry in situations other than "I need a unit imideatly, but I don't have cash for the Heavy Phalanx so this Peltast will have to do for now"?
When I play scenarios like "Imperium Romanum" as for example Macedon, I buy Phalanx to defend and Hypaspistes or Heitaroi to defend. I almost never buy Peltasts, archers or any skrimishers. The game engine just doesn't make light infantry that usefull to have around.
Historically light infantry and skrimishers played a very important role in ancient warfare. They were used in the initial phase of every battle to find weak spots in ennemy lines or to cover the wings of heavy infantry. When the army was on the move the light infantrymen were ofthen sent on patrols, used to secure the camp area and supplying the army with fresh water. They also played a key role in sieges.
Overall light infantry was an integral part of any ancient army.
Therefore to make Light infantry a unit worth buying in Civ2 I have decided to give all such units (as well as archers, slinger and other skrimishers) several special abilities:
- 2 space visibility (patroling was one of their main tasks)
- Alpine movement
- Ignore city walls (This is the most controversial, but I think fair ability. Sieges are very different to open field battles. In sieges even Heavy infantry lost many of its best assets, not to mention the Phalanx or cavalry. In comparison Light infantry or archers with lighter equipement and projectile weapons proved much more effective)
I'll hvae to do some tests to check how this works ingame, but I hope to make light infantry a much more respected unit.
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Boco
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who was once King for a week.
Jan 2001
time: 00:16
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Kashanka those are excellent ideas, but I'll play devil's advocate against 'ignores city walls'. Here's the model:
- Give the Howitzer flag only to siege artillery and perhaps leaders.
- Give light troops high mobility and recce value as you indicated. These are already great benefits
- Make the Macedonian elite costly and geographically restrict the cities from which they can be obtained (either explicitly or economically).
- There should be a strong need for light troops and medium infantry (peltasts and their successors) to provide troops of last resort. Kinda like needing units, but lacking prestige in PacGen.
- Light troops in good terrain should have a fighting chance defending against the phalanx. This would reflect the difficulty in maintaining a phalanx in order. It'd also allow the player to deploy them aggressively in broken terrain at choke points and in enemy city radii.
If during testing, you find it viable to field heavy infantry only, then tweak the scen to punish the fielding of small armies
- Increase the need for having many units to enforce martial law,
- Create barbs in/near any empty city,
- Give a specific 'Rebel' unit the para flag, so that the AI will attack a weakly guarded city.
- Use more terrain that highlights the advantages of mobile light infantry,
- Make phalanxes and the like even more expensive,
- Ignore all this and design the scen that way you think will work best.
From one of the Ueda links I gave earlier:
quote:
Because the Macedonians were the most proficient part of each Successor's army army, and also the hardest to replace, the Diadochoi had an incentive to use them sparingly....They had to harbour their Macedonians for use in the pitched battles that ultimately decided all their fates. |
This argument focuses mostly on Macedonian heavy infantry used by your Hellenistic civs. The Roman Legion is another matter.
Here's the $64k question: should phalanxes be primarily offensive or defensive units? I'd lean toward offensive. Otherwise players will just use them as garrisons, not the units to decide field battles. Pike flag would be useful here, if light troops and/or cavalry fit the 2mf/1hp rule.
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beingofone
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U.S.A.
Apr 2003
time: 05:16
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I played the demo of Rome total war. I found the AI way to easy to obliterate. The game engine is really cool though.
I own Legion Gold and Chariots of War both by Slitherine. Great games especially Chariots. A little dated but hey, we still play Civ2 lol.
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KASHANKA
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It would be really cool to make the Phalanx fight worse in difficult terrain, but I don't think that the engine will allow this for only the Phalanx and not for legions at the same time.
As with geographical restriction of the Hellenistic infantry - this would be highly unhistoricall!
In 217 during the battle of Raphia Ptholemy used 20 000 Sarissophoroi, all of them were trained Egyptians.
The Seleucid phalangistes were recruited from the military colonists who were spread throughout the empire. One of the Phlanax units which fought to the last man in the battle of Magnesia was made of warriors from Mesopotamia (through they were probably ethnical Greeks from the military colonies).
Therefore I don't see the need of geographical restriction of heavy Hellenistic units. On the other hand, I belive that geographical restriction of light horse archers would be much more reasonable.
The Heavy Infantry will of course be rather expensive...
As for the cost, this is one thing I find hard to simulate:
Hellenistic soldiers were mostly expensive, profesional warriors which had to be paied large sums of money to maintain. Hellenistic wars were ofther waged to the first battle. The winner was able to maintain his army from the plunder, while the looser went bankrupt and didn't have a way to pay his units.
Roman legionaires were mostly recruited peasants and were paid rather lousy sums of money, plus they were recruited easily every year due to the roman law.
I can't seem to find a way to simulate this, except changing the price of the units (high for Hellenistic, low for Romans) and giving Rome the "Crusade" wonder.
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KASHANKA
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Here is the Unit list for today:
Settlers
Engineers
Citizen Militia
Seleucid Phalanx
Ptholemaic Phalanx
Macedonian Phalanx
Peltasts
Thracian Peltasts
Velites
Hastati
Princepes
Triari
Regular Cohorts
Elite Cohorts
Roman Cavalry
Seleucid Heitaroi
Ptholemaic Heitaroi
Macedonian Heitaroi
War Elephant
Slingers
Archers
Siege Artillery
Ballista
Cataphractoi
Horse Archers
Pontine Bronze Shields
Oriental Infantry
Celtic warriors
Celtic warlords
Celtic cavalry
Gauls
Germanic warriors
Germanic warlords
Briton warriors
Dacian warriors
Cimbri warband
Liburne
Triere
Pentere
Heptere
Decimere
Transport flotilla
Chariot
Scythian cavalry
Chariot
Greek Light cavalry
Mercenaries
Armenian Infantry
Carthaginian Phalanx
Iberian Infantry
Carthaginian Light infantry
Iberian Cavalry
Carthaginian Heavy cavalry
Numidian riders
Jewish insurgents
Camel rider
Traders
Merchant vessel
Envoy
This leaves 4 slots empty... any good ideas?
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KASHANKA
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I DO like the idea of "imitation legionaires", I'm considering 2 unit E-files and event files, so the "Imitation legionaires" will definitally appear in the second one.'
Argyraspides, Chalkaspides and Leukispides weren't just ordinary Phalangistes. Normal Phalangistes were mercenaries or recruits, while Agryraspides were full time regular troops, always at the side of the king. They were a sort of his personal guard. While at peace, on the move or in "police actions" they were armed like hoplites (big shield, short spear), but in major battles they fought like phalangistes.
This gave me an idea... maybe I should include the Agryraspides as a very good, but REALLY expensive unit?
I'm also thinking about adding the Samnite unit to the game, they will probably be destroyed in a few turns from the start of the game, but they were formidable warriors and I belive they deserve a place in the unit file.
Currently I'm keeping them as a reserve (if nothing better or more usefull appears, I'll put in Samnites, if there will be 2 slots left I'll put in Etruscans)
As for the elephant... Indian/African is a good idea, sadly I don't have a graphic for the indian one. Currently I'm using the Favfly one. I just hate those little elephant graphics, where they look smaller than horses!
I'll attach the elephant graphic file, if someone can make the indian elephant out of it, I'll definitaly use them. I'm too weak as a graphic designer to do this.
The Indian elephant should be bigger, have smaller ears, and have slightly smaller tusks then the african elephant graphic I'm using.
 Attachment: elephant.bmp
This has been downloaded 11 time(s).
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beingofone
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U.S.A.
Apr 2003
time: 05:16
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Looking forward to another cool scenario.
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beingofone
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U.S.A.
Apr 2003
time: 05:16
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Hey Techumseh,
I have a three pack ancient I am working on. I am really busy right now and these are gonna take awhile.
1 - The Etruscans - The West Awakens
ancient colinization and empire building
2 - The Med empires - starting at the Golden Age of Athens
3 - Alexander`s Empire
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Boco
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who was once King for a week.
Jan 2001
time: 00:16
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Good job on the list! 
Looks like I stated my case too strongly about geographical limits on the phalanx units too strongly. Yes, the Pantodapoi (Asian phalanx) served important roles in Seleucid and Antogonid armies. Since these evolved from the original Macedonian phalanx, I'm suggesting that you limit the cities/provinces that can build them to ones that historically fielded them. You've probably got a solution in mind, but a combo of cost and civ-specific techs, coupled with having a limited number of high-shield cities is one possibility.
Some random questions:
- What are your thoughts on leaders? They tended to make and break armies during this era. It appears that you're assuming that they're integral to the units. Maybe with the AI, you have to do that.
- Obviously you've read up on the Romans and know that Roman legion underwent some very substantial changes during the 300BC-1AD period. At the onset of the period, they changed from a hoplite formation to a manipular one. They adopted the gladius sometime during the 2nd Punic war. Then there were the Marian reforms around 107BC. It looks like you've covered both manipular and cohort legions. Any interest in simulating the shift from hasta to gladius?
At one point I toyed with a closely related scen, the Diadochoi from 323-280BC (a dead project). My unit list was surprisingly close to yours (but without so many northern tribes). Here's an edited version. Since many of your names are too long for the city build and F2 lists, I threw in some ideas on the list, too. In many slots, your name is better.
code:
Settlers Katoikoi
Engineers Sappers
Citizen Militia Garrison
Seleucid Phalanx Pantodapoi
Ptholemaic Phalanx Egyptians
Macedonian Phalanx Pezhetairoi
Peltasts Peltasts
Thracian Peltasts Thracians or Thureophoroi
Velites Roriarii, Velites, or Hastati
Hastati Legio (H)? (i.e. Hoplite)
Principes Legio (M)? (i.e. Manipulii)
Triarii Legio (G)? (i.e. Gladius)
Regular Cohorts Legio (C) ? (i.e. Cohortis)
Elite Cohorts Primus Cohortis?
Roman Cavalry Equites
Seleucid Heitaroi Xystophoroi
Ptholemaic Heitaroi Xystophoroi
Macedonian Heitaroi Hetairoi
War Elephant Thèrarchia
Slingers Slingers
Archers Toxotoi, Sagitarii, or Levy Archers
Merc Archers
Siege Artillery Katapeltai, Tormenta
Ballista
Cataphractoi Sacae
Horse Archers Mtd Archers, Hippotoxotoi
Pontine Bronze Shields Agyraspids?
Oriental Infantry Thanvabara, Indians or Levy Archers
Celtic warriors Celts?
Celtic warlords Soldurii
Celtic cavalry Gallic Cav?
Gauls Gallic Inf?
Germanic warriors Barbarii?
Germanic warlords Soldurii
Briton warriors Celts?
Dacian warriors Getae (IIRC Fairline's Galatians)
Cimbri warband Cimbrii
Liburne Limburnii?, Illyrians?
Triere Triremes
Pentere Quinquerines
Heptere
Decimere
Transport flotilla Transports
Chariot Drepanèphoroi
Scythian cavalry Scythians
Chariot
Greek Light cavalry Hippeis, Prodromoi, Longchophoi, or Tarentines
Mercenaries Hoplitai?
Armenian Infantry
Carthaginian Phalanx Sacred Band?
Iberian Infantry Scutarii
Carthaginian Light inf Numidian Inf?
Iberian Cavalry
Carthaginian Heavy cav Libyan Cav, Poeni Cav
Numidian riders
Jewish insurgents Zealots?
Camel rider Camelry or Nabateans
Traders
Merchant vessel
Envoy
Generic Lt Troops Psiloi, Longchophoi, or Skirmishers
Fortress
Siege Ship
Merc Archer
Levy Archer
General Strategos
Satrap
Scorpio
Celtic Streakers Gaesati
Storm (sub missile at sea)
Disease (air, rng=1, mf=1, event-derived)
Many of the Greek terms come from Glossary of ancient Greek military terms or Military History Glossary (Ancient Period)
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beingofone
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U.S.A.
Apr 2003
time: 05:16
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Are you the same Boco that posts at The Wargamer?
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KASHANKA
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About eastern Phalangistes: With Ptolemaic phalanx (I'll stop calling him Ptholemy as I'm not sure the correct english form and call him Ptolemaios instead) its a mystery, as we only know that they were ofther formed of Egyptians. The most logical explanation would be that they were ethnical greeeks living in Egyptian cities like Heracleopolis or Alexandria.
Seleucid phalangists are without doubt military colonits. And this is exactly the main problem, as they weren't citizens of any exact city. For their service to the monarchy, the king "borrowed" them a piece of land free of tribute to cultivate as long as the soldier and his heirs would participate in training and wage wars of the said king as phalangistes.
Such "military colonies" were spread across the empire, concentrating in Mesopotamia, Minor Asia and Syria.
Saying all this I belive that geographical restriction will not be much needed, as Mesopotamia, Minor Asia and Syria will simply be the "high shield" regions in my scenario, as they were in history.
The Marian reformes will be simulated by:
A) The Leonardo wonder, which will start the game in Rome. (I'm not sure about the name yet, maybe Roman Legions? or something)
B) There will be a tech called "Reforms of Marius". Rome will get it automaticaly in 100 BCE during the change from the first to the second event and unit file, but the Roman player will be able to research "Reforms of Marius" sooner.
C) This will change all Hastati and Princepes into "Regular Cohorts" and all Triari into "Elite Cohorts".
D) Velites will be transformed into Auxilia automatically during the change of event and unit files in 100 BCE.
As for the change "from hasta to gladius":
Romans started using the manipular tactics and exchanged the long spear for pilum and short sword (except Triari) during the Samnite wars (343-341, 326-304, 298-290). My scenario starts in 281 or 280 BCE, therefore this change will not be simulated. Maybe after I finish this scenario I'll make a special "Rise of Rome" expansion pack starting in the 4th century BCE. But that is still to be left for the future.
As for the leaders:
This is a "Big scale" scenario, streaching for around 300 years! It is impossible for the engine to simulate individual leaders, unless we want to see Phyrros living up till the 1st century BCE. Therefore no individual leader units will be present. Maybe I'll make the effect of great leaders simulated through events or techs.
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01-03-2005 20:55
) could help in units/cities greek names. 
)
lease delete this post]
), empire earth, age of empires 1 and 2 with their expansion packs and rise of nations, they can give some rather good direction for scenario making, mabe.....huh?
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