27-02-2005 22:58									#1
	"Si vis pacem, para bellum" scenario under construction Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

"Si vis pacem, para bellum" (If you want peace, get ready for war) is a new scenario for MGE/FW I'm presently trying to make.
This scenario will depict the situation in the ancient Mediterrean from around 300 BC to 1 AD.
The huge map streaches from the dense forests of Sarmatia in the north, to the heat of the Sahara in the south, from oriental Bactria in the east to the Atlantic Ocean in the west.
I want this to be a scenario of empire building, economical, technological and cultural expansion and not just pure warfare. On the other hand the title says it all: In ancient times having a strong army was inevitable if an empire wanted to survive and prosper. This is why I'm spending a lot of time choosing the proper units and assesing their stats.

As of now the main civs are:

The Roman Republic
The Macedon Kingdom of the Antigonides
The Egyptian Kingdom of the Lagides
The Asian Kingdom of the Seleucides
The Republic of Carthage
The Greek City States

I'm still thinking about the 7th civ... As of now the main candidates are:
The Kingdom of Parthia
The Epirote Kingdom of the Ajakides
The Kingdom of Bactria
The Kingdom of Pontus
The Kingdom of Armenia

Presently I'm leaning to the Epirote option. but this is a really hard choice so any advice is welcome and will be taken into consideration.

I hope that FINALLY this will be one scenario I'll actually finish. I can't promise that it will be ready soon, but for now the future is looking bright. I have the most important parts: a good ida and a good map.

Any comments, ideas, suggestions for Units, technologies, civs or anything t all is welcome.

	27-02-2005 23:10									#2
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Powerful modern wonders could be renamed and added for building for certain civs.

They could be restricted to certain techs (via the no,no technique)
and be buildable after great events like 'what-if' victories...

Just an idea...

	27-02-2005 23:14									#3
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Sounds fabulous. Good luck, and remember the old saying of techumsus: "Compleo a venatus , servo is vegrandis". (To complete a scenario, keep it small)

	28-02-2005 00:49									#4
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Sounds great.
I advise Pontus for the seventh civ

	28-02-2005 02:43									#5
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Parthia.

Always good to see new ancient/medieval scenarios.

Looking forward to it.

@ "Techumsus" Is it Techumsus Rex?

Pretty bad when latin jokes appear.

	28-02-2005 02:49									#6
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K'...
I'm still thinking, but as far as I see it, the 7th civ is dow to:

Epirus -
on the plus side: they had a very good army (phalangistes, Elephants, heavy cavalry) a good leader (Phyrros), they were an important factor in the politics of the western mediterrean and allied with Syracusae they could prove quite a challenge for Carthago or Rome. Plus they fit into my "non-barbarian" cathegory real well as they are Hellenes.
Now the cons:
Epirus has Few cities, and the might of Epirus lasted only during the life of Phyrros and declined soon afther he died. Therefore it can be simulated easy without beeing a new civ. A big army under Phyrros might as well be simulated by "Greek City states" units.

Pontus: Similar as Epirus, various individual units like the Bronze shields or legionaires or the Pontine cavalry. On my map they would have a really usefull placement filling a hole between the major civs. (most of minor asia starts "Greek city").
The cons are also similar to the ones of Epirus: few cities, short period of importance and relatively easy to simulate with other units (though not as easy as Epirus).

Parthia: Now here we have a different kettle of fish, Parthia would be the only "Fully Oriental" civ in the scenario and a balance for the Seleucides in the east. Without Parthia I'd have to fill Iran with multiple "Barbarian" cities to counter the Seleucides for the purpose of historical realism. If that would work out than Parthia can might as well go, but if not than Parthia as a civ is a necessity in the east.

	28-02-2005 05:10									#7
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Parthia might be fun to play too. Even if it's not favored at start or by the scenario.

	28-02-2005 05:47									#8
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Why not have both Epirus and Parthia and use Barbs for either Greek city states?

	28-02-2005 16:23									#9
	Re: "Si vis pacem, para bellum" scenario under construction Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by KASHANKA "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (If you want peace, get ready for war) is a new scenario for MGE/FW I'm presently trying to make. This scenario will depict the situation in the ancient Mediterrean from around 300 BC to 1 AD.

Excellent idea!!!

quote: Originally posted by KASHANKA The Roman Republic The Macedon Kingdom of the Antigonides The Egyptian Kingdom of the Lagides The Asian Kingdom of the Seleucides The Republic of Carthage The Greek City States I'm still thinking about the 7th civ... The Kingdom of Parthia The Epirote Kingdom of the Ajakides The Kingdom of Bactria The Kingdom of Pontus The Kingdom of Armenia

Every consideraton made by everyone is correct and has his own good reasons...
I'd humbly suggest to put as 6th the Parthia (even because this nation arrived at AD 1 ...) even if I understand that in 3OO BC it wasn't in the top of powers...
For the 7th... a "Independent States" civ, heavily based on Greek (ethnically and/or culturally) states: Siracusae, Epyrus, Achean and Aetholian Leagues, Ponthus (maybe Armenia, too - strictly connected with Ponthus in the long Mithridates age), Rhodos, Pergamus...
Barbarians: Celtae-Galli-Galati, Iberi-Celtiberi, Cimbri-Teutoni, Sarmati, Daci-Illyri, Thraci, Pirati Cilici-Cretenses, Numidi-Mauri, Bachtria...

Surely I forgot something, but I try to considere a global view of the period and of the lands involved in this amazing struggle...
GO KASHANKA!

	28-02-2005 22:17									#10
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Parthia definitely - their belligerant interaction with the Seleucids and the late Roman Republic are key in this period.

If it's any help, here are a set of replacement units for BeBro's classic Rome scenario; I've posted many before but many are 'new' (inclusing Etruscans, Successor Macedonians, Samnites, Parthians etc). If any need clarification as to their identity, give me a shout:

PS: Thanks to Boco for salvaging these for me

Attachment: fairline impromeng units.zip
This has been downloaded 34 time(s).

	01-03-2005 00:47									#11
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Fairline! Your units are superb! If I knew I'd get such great graphics I would rethink my entire unit choo
I bow to your skills man, my puny Samnite, Etruscan and German infantry can go to the rubbish bin now!

Thanx a LOT man!

Really, I can't express my admiration for those great graphics enough... I'm seeing so many new perspectives here...

Someone get me a good map extending from Sicily to India and I'll get you the best Diadochoi scenario ever created!

Last edited by KASHANKA on 01-03-2005 at 00:54

	01-03-2005 02:57									#12
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Pontus!


Once I even considered a Mitridatus scn. I will never do it, but I want to play Pontus in someone's scn.
At last there's some new not XX-century scn. Pontus must be in. Pleeeeaaase!
I'm your fellowman!

	01-03-2005 03:46									#13
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This isn't to be another territorial demand like Upper Silesia, is it?

	01-03-2005 03:58									#14
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And I'm right as usual!

	01-03-2005 04:05									#15
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quote: Originally posted by KASHANKA Fairline! Your units are superb! If I knew I'd get such great graphics I would rethink my entire unit choo I bow to your skills man, my puny Samnite, Etruscan and German infantry can go to the rubbish bin now! Thanx a LOT man!

Pleasure and thanks.

quote: Really, I can't express my admiration for those great graphics enough... I'm seeing so many new perspectives here... Someone get me a good map extending from Sicily to India and I'll get you the best Diadochoi scenario ever created!

There's only one Diadochoi scenario I know of: Prometeus' Antigonus

@Heresson: stop already Pontus was a puny nonentity compared to the rise of Parthia; they did for the Seleucids hopes of dominance in the Middle East.

	01-03-2005 04:45									#16
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They only managed to take a snap of Seleucid empire when it was in decline already. Carrhae I know, but it'd be more fun to play it than Parthia.

We could have Armenia as a compromise... It's in the middle, and it had Parthian dinasty longer than Iran I gues...

	01-03-2005 05:17									#17
	Some random thoughts (i.e. troll) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Just to get ideas flowing, here are some random thoughts.

• One historical theory has it that the Romans adapted their manipular legion tactics from the Samnites. IIRC, the Samnites defeated the Hoplite Romans for a generation or so before they were conquered.
  
  
• In fact, the Roman military record was mediocre at best during this period, but they were remarkable in their ability to rebound with yet another army.
  
  
• Seleukus obtained a decisive edge in elephants after he was soundly defeated in India by Chandra-whatzisname.
  
  
• Treachery was the name of the game among the successors for a few generations. Ideally, Macedonian phalangites and the like should be difficult to build (Geographic limitations?) but relatively easy to bribe (by other Hellenistics).
  
  
• IIRC, Parthia came into existence much later than your starting date. Techumseh used a trick in Red October to make an instant civ midway into the scen.
  
  
• My vote is for an Eastern civ that relied heavily on mounted troops, but lacked effective siege trains.
  
  
• My reasoning for making Greek city states Barbs was their frequent lack of cohesion
  

quote: some minor detail and I'll get you the best Diadochoi scenario ever created!

	01-03-2005 05:29									#18
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quote: Techumseh used a trick in Red October to make an instant civ midway into the scen.

Explain it to me, please

	01-03-2005 06:45									#19
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I'll give Tech a chance before I butcher the explanation.

	01-03-2005 10:37									#20
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OK. The problem was Poland. (Isn't it always, Heresson? ) How to create Poland, at the end of the first world war, where it had not existed previously?

First, I created a Polish settler on the N map edge in the Arctic Ocean, where no one could get to it and it could not move. No other Polish units and no Polish cities exist.

Second, at the time of the armistice, Polish combat units are placed by events adjacent to Polish cities under German control. A MakeAggression event has the Poles attack the Germans. A Negotiation event (talker/listener mask - ToT only) prevents the Poles from making peace with the Germans. This is to prevent the Polish AI from making peace before ALL of their target cities are liberated.

At the same time, a tech is given to the Central Powers civ which makes which all German and Austro-Hungarian units obsolete. Leonardo's Workshop (renamed SDP) in Berlin converts all of them to weak 'deserter' units.

The Poles attack and easily take the target cities. BTW, for this to work properly, the Poles should move ahead of the Germans in the turn sequence. The following turn, a Negotiator event (ToT only) allows the Germans and Poles to talk, and a peace treaty is signed between the two AI controlled civs. Voila, a nation is born!

	01-03-2005 11:15									#21
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oh. I used something a bit different. I've made a Muslim city at the edge of the map that is changeterrained to the ground when the civ captures (thanks to events) proper cities after higra

	01-03-2005 11:23									#22
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That works too.

	01-03-2005 15:23									#23
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About Parthia.

Quote from the Wikipedia:

"Initially, a king named Arsaces (possibly of a nomad tribe named Parni, a name whose relation to the word Parthian is much debated, or according to Armenian sources of White Hun origins) made himself independent of Seleucid rule in remote areas of northern Iran ca 250 BCE,"

My Scenario will probably start in 280 BCE, so saying that there were no Parthians when the scenario starts is not correct. The Parni were a Dahae tribe, and the Dahae are well known to fight against, and later along the side of Alexander the Great.

If Parthia goes in, I'll make her a small kingdom in classical Parthia and Dahae lands, which will be allied with the Seleucid Empire. Then somewhere around 250 BCE I'll make them go to war against the Seleucides with an event.

	01-03-2005 15:55									#24
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about Parthia. 280 bC is a 'classical' starting-year, indeed (1:Pyrrhos' expedition in Italy, 2:year after battle of Kuropedion... and other facts, of course )

	01-03-2005 16:17									#25
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Kashanka, if it was directed to me, I did not claim the thing You are opposing

	01-03-2005 16:28									#26
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@Heresson: I was forgetting... it would be nice to have - in this scen- any 'signs of life' about Ponthos (I like Mithridates wars' age, too). Maybe this will be possible by using wisely certain events, won't it?

	01-03-2005 18:14									#27
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I really enjoy ancient and medieval scenarios, so glad to see another in the works. Not sure if these comments will be any helpl to you or not, but the possibility exists, so here are some observations;

Both Bernd Brosing's IMPERIUM ROMANUM and the MEDITERA scenarios are good . . . but not great. I've tried both of them at various times and given up.

I was annoyed when, having ALREADY conquered most of Greece and Macedonia, the Epirote Warlord and his pachyderms appeared in my midst in southern Italy. Attempting to time "historical" events is tricky. Untimely appearances destroy verisimilitude.

I'd like to see a Roman scenario that is truly BIG. That is, made on a very large map. The two scens mentioned above have pretty big maps. Don't think I've ever seen a giga map of the mediterranean world.

In ancient and Medieval scenarios, barbarians are GOOD. They're just difficult to control. There are ways to do just that.

Movement is always tricky. A legion could march a long way in a single year.

I'd like to see a big map that included Britain, but not most of European Russia. An odd or novel map orientation isn't a bad thing.

and getting Gareth's units is a gift from the gods.

	01-03-2005 19:01									#28
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The map I'm using is big, but not Giga. Its 115 on 86.

I belive you'll like the map Exile, as it includes Britan, but not Russia! The most northern border is the Oder river and parts of the Ukrainian steppes just north of Crimea. The Baltic sea is barely visible, as on this map there are just 4 fields of it. No Scandinavia at all. The NE is really nice, full trans Caspian plains and Bactria are there. Alexandria Eschate will surely make an appearance in my scenario.

As for timing of events... Its tricky, but I'll do my best. Since I'm going to leave the player a full freedom of choosing the direction of expansion I'll probably fix the "invasion events" on the actions of the civs in the game. For example my Phyrros would appear when the Romans destroy the first Free Greek unit... (Its just an example, as Phyrros is already on the map in 280 BCE).

I'll try to avoid "date-based" events when possible, but its all to be decided once the design process progresses.

Now I'm deciding what unit types will appear in the scenario. I'm sorry to say that there will probably be multiple event and unit files
I know that it sucks, but I belive that its choosing the lesser evil.

BTW
Does anybody here speak Greek? I want to give the Greek (and Hellenistic) cities and units real Greek names, but I'm not keen on Greek.

	01-03-2005 20:01									#29
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I'm not really an expert on this era Kashanka, so I won't be much of a help, but I'm really looking forward to this one.

	01-03-2005 20:13									#30
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Which civ do you favor as for the human player? This time period had many themes: wars of the successors, Punic wars (II and III, right?), rise of Rome (including Gaul), rise of Parthia. One approach is to use civ-specific event files.

If you haven't already, you can find a lot of info on the various DBA and DBM sites.

Luke Ueda-Sarson's Ancient Military History Site has a lot of Greek nomenclature. Appears to be pretty accurate.

DBA Online: Armies gives only generic names, but it does provide information about army compositions.

Anyone else have good ancient links?

As for map size, bigger is more tempting. Just remember the odds of completing a scenario seems inversely proportional to the map size. So I'd vote against giga, despite its allure.

Kashanka, you're right that the Parthian tribe existed early on, but they weren't on the level of the other civs until later. Don't get me wrong, I'd really like to see them as a civ. Just keep up your research so that you portray them with some accuracy.

[Religious proselytizing] To save Tech from having to say this: you have a lot more event space and more unit slots in ToT. Is ToT available/affordable in Poland? [/Religious proselytizing]