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chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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Question  Old Post 01-03-2005 21:02 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Er?

MarkG is offline MarkG
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Macedonia, Greece
Jan 1970
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High court strikes down death penalty for juveniles Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote:
High court strikes down death penalty for juveniles

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that the Constitution forbids the execution of killers who were under 18 when they committed their crimes, ending a practice used in Arizona and 18 other states.

The 5-4 decision throws out the death sentences of about 70 juvenile murderers and bars states from seeking to execute minors for future crimes.

The executions, the court said, were unconstitutionally cruel.

It was the second major defeat at the high court in three years for supporters of the death penalty. Justices in 2002 banned the execution of the mentally retarded, also citing the Constitution's Eighth Amendment ban on cruel and unusual punishments.

The court had already outlawed executions for those who were 15 and younger when they committed their crimes.

Tuesday's ruling prevents states from making 16- and 17-year-olds eligible for execution.

Justice Anthony Kennedy, writing for the majority, noted that most states don't allow the execution of juvenile killers and those that do use the penalty infrequently. The trend, he noted, was to abolish the practice.

"Our society views juveniles ... as categorically less culpable than the average criminal," Kennedy wrote.

Juvenile offenders have been put to death in recent years in just a few other countries, including Iran, Pakistan, China and Saudi Arabia. All those countries have gone on record as opposing capital punishment for minors.

The Supreme Court has permitted states to impose capital punishment since 1976 and more than 3,400 inmates await execution in the 38 states that allow death sentences.

Justices were called on to draw an age line in death cases after Missouri's highest court overturned the death sentence given to a 17-year-old Christopher Simmons, who kidnapped a neighbor in Missouri, hog-tied her and threw her off a bridge. Prosecutors say he planned the burglary and killing of Shirley Crook in 1993 and bragged that he could get away with it because of his age.

The four most liberal justices had already gone on record in 2002, calling it "shameful" to execute juvenile killers. Those four, joined by Kennedy, also agreed with Tuesday's decision: Justices John Paul Stevens, David H. Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer.

Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist and Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas, as expected, voted to uphold the executions. They were joined by Justice Sandra Day O'Connor.

Currently, 19 states allow executions for people under age 18: Arizona, Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Utah, Texas and Virginia.

In a dissent, Scalia decried the decision, arguing that there has been no clear trend of declining juvenile executions to justify a growing consensus against the practice.

"The court says in so many words that what our people's laws say about the issue does not, in the last analysis, matter: 'In the end our own judgment will be brought to bear on the question of the acceptability of the death penalty,' he wrote in a 24-page dissent.

"The court thus proclaims itself sole arbiter of our nation's moral standards," Scalia wrote.


chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
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YAY!!!! Great news!

alva is offline alva
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Sep 2001
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Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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killers should be put to death, no matter what age...

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
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eh....

Mrs. Tuberski is offline Mrs. Tuberski
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Jan 2005
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  Old Post 01-03-2005 22:09
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I ask you whats the difference between a 15 yo killer and a70 yo killer nothing except one can run faster. I wonder if all would feel the same way if the say 15 yo killed a member of their family.

BeBro is offline BeBro
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Mar 2000
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  Old Post 01-03-2005 22:12 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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HA! This will lead to a new wave of killings done by minors!

MarkG is offline MarkG
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
I wonder if all would feel the same way if the say 15 yo killed a member of their family.

I'm sure (and hope) I would

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
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damn straight

MarkG is offline MarkG
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quote:
Originally posted by BeBro
HA! This will lead to a new wave of killings done by minors!
yes! the revolution against adults will now be easier!

Sava is offline Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
I ask you whats the difference between a 15 yo killer and a70 yo killer nothing except one can run faster. I wonder if all would feel the same way if the say 15 yo killed a member of their family.
exactly...

I was also shocked to read that 70 murderers in Arizona will be spared just because they happened to be under 18 when they MURDERED their victim(s).

BeBro is offline BeBro
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Those murderers MURDERED their victims? Who would have thought that.....

Mrs. Tuberski is offline Mrs. Tuberski
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universal city tx
Jan 2005
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  Old Post 01-03-2005 22:24
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Lets apply this theroy to the case of the kids that killed their father in florida. I agree that the boys inthis case shouldnt be put to death. They were influcenced by another adult to commit these crimes however I draw the line when it comes to the 14 or 15 yo gangbanger doing a drive by cause his girlfriend was cheating on him or because of a rival gang that is ridculous.

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
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  Old Post 01-03-2005 22:25 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
yes! the revolution against adults will now be easier!


Everything is going according to plan.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:20
  Old Post 01-03-2005 22:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
I wonder if all would feel the same way if the say 15 yo killed a member of their family.


Or if their own 15 year old killed a member of another family.

BeBro is offline BeBro
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  Old Post 01-03-2005 22:28 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by OzzyKP


Everything is going according to plan.


I'm just wondering why Che is dancing, I thought he was older

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
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Jan 2003
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  Old Post 01-03-2005 22:41 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
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A step in the right direction, though it's not enough. The closer America comes into line with civilised Western societies, the better... hopefully they'll stop executing people full stop.

GePap is offline GePap
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  Old Post 01-03-2005 22:48
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Good.

As much as I generally disagree with Ozzy and his adult crusade, but having established a line between adult and child, it makes little sense to violate it at will in criminal cases, yet deny that if these kids are adult enough to die, they are not adult enough to watch an R rated movie, or smoke, or drink, or have sex with whomever they want.

Its unacceptable hypocrasy.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 01-03-2005 22:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
A step in the right direction, though it's not enough. The closer America comes into line with civilised Western societies, the better... hopefully they'll stop executing people full stop.


Would you be saying that if the word 'juveniles' were replaced by 'chavs' in the thread title.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
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Whaleboy: @ sig

It's even more priceless with his current avatar

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:20
  Old Post 01-03-2005 23:33
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quote:
In a dissent, Scalia decried the decision, arguing that there has been no clear trend of declining juvenile executions to justify a growing consensus against the practice.
Wonder if he now realizes that's an assanine standard to use and is basically a power grab on the part of the Court from the people's representatives? Probably not.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
  Old Post 01-03-2005 23:50
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Shouldn't it be US Supreme Court... seeing as how MarkG started the thread?

Anyway, I'm with GePap. If we say that 18 is the dividing line, we shouldn't just violate it whenever we feel like. It gives more creedence to nuts like Ozzy .

Though, of course, if they are over 18, fry 'em good

shawnmmcc is offline shawnmmcc
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Jan 2003
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  Old Post 01-03-2005 23:54
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One of the reasons this has been advocated is because it has been shown the juveniles are materially less able to help in their defense (this also obviously applies to the mentally retarded). In interviews with both defense and prosecuting attornies, NPR did a special and both groups often agreed that many juveniles would flip-flop radically on plea agreements and testimony based on their mood for the day.

Essentially many juveniles (not all) are not materially able to help in their defense. This essentially means that they are not responsible, in the sense of an adult. Besides the process issues, which I have expounded on in probably numbing length in the past, I am very mixed about this. I subscribe to the "Prevention of harm" theory of incarceration, and is a rabid little animal, like that boy in Missouri, get's lose in the future, he may very well kill again. The fact he bragged about how he could not be executed shows there is some deterrent effect, at least in isolated cases.

If we could fix the US justice system, I might support the execution of minors for henious crimes. Since I do not believe that is possible, given that there is not a sufficiently large constituency for it, I will take the best I can get. Sadly, that is this decision.

Mrs. Tuberski is offline Mrs. Tuberski
Princess
universal city tx
Jan 2005
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  Old Post 02-03-2005 00:01
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One would think that the crime it self and circumstances surrounding it would be the deciding factor on whether the death penalty should apply. Not the age of the person commiting the crime. i.e For some odd reason we all would like to believe that all 10 yo boys are just into playing with their friends and stuff but i fact there are some 10 yo boys that are particpating in gang related shootings etc. Therefore the death penalty should be applied as needed.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
One would think that the crime it self and circumstances surrounding it would be the deciding factor on whether the death penalty should apply. Not the age of the person commiting the crime. i.e For some odd reason we all would like to believe that all 10 yo boys are just into playing with their friends and stuff but i fact there are some 10 yo boys that are particpating in gang related shootings etc. Therefore the death penalty should be applied as needed.


Not if they don't have full mental capacity. Remember to prove murder, you don't merely have to prove the act, but also the guilty mind. That's the reason we don't execute retarded people anymore. Their lack of total mental capacity means the guilty mind prong is found wanting.

Also it would seem obvious that if you are old enough to be executed, you should be old enough to enjoy the other privileges of adulthood.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 02-03-2005 00:14
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Except that's not the standard they used to strike down the execution of the little angel. They hung their hat of a meaninglessly subjective standard with little Constitutional support they pulled out of their own arse that means whatever they say it does.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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The Potterverse
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  Old Post 02-03-2005 00:18
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What, you mean cruel and unusual punishment?

Mrs. Tuberski is offline Mrs. Tuberski
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universal city tx
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  Old Post 02-03-2005 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui



Also it would seem obvious that if you are old enough to be executed, you should be old enough to enjoy the other privileges of adulthood.

Would that mean that those kids that have already watched r rated movies and drank alcohol and ran around doing what they want to do and killed somebody get the same treatment as those kids who say have done none of the above and killed?

Wycoff is offline Wycoff
Chieftain

Feb 2003
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  Old Post 02-03-2005 00:21
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I agree with Sava

 
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