02-03-2005 02:52									#61
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It is a fact that teens don't have the self-control of adults the prefrontal lobe does not become fully mature untill a person is in his/her 20's (or if you have adult ADHD, like me, it never does. )

	02-03-2005 02:55									#62
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Do you truly believe 16 year olds like the one from this case are incapable of doing a cost-benefit analysis regarding the commission of their crime?

I Believe a 16 year old is much more likely to be an individual incapable of making these decisions than a 30 year old would, certainly. I also think that the law, having made 18 the age of adulthood, should respect it in all cases, and not just when it feels it doesn't need to.

No, teenagers are NOT as able as adults to make intelligently informed choices.

	02-03-2005 02:56									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui What about a 9 year old? They know it is wrong to kill. Put them in the chair? How low do you go and why?

I'm not sure that a 9 year old knwos that killing is wron in the same way that a 16 year old does. I don't know exactly what age the psychological development occurs, but young children are unable to fully comprehend the finality of death. I think that they probably have developed that sense by 9, but maybe they haven't; that's a question for psychologists. If a child of average psychological development cannot fairly be expected to comprehend the crime, then its obvious that that child should not be held responsible for that crime. That's why there are tender age doctrines.

Here is my idea of where the lines should be drawn for Juvenile DP...

Tender Age doctrines prevent children under certain ages (7 or 8, usually) from being culpable for any civil or criminal offense. That speaks for itself. No DP for children who would be protected by a tender age doctrine.

When a juvenile between the ages of 7/8 -13/14 is brought to trial on a civil matter, there is a rebuttable assumption that that child cannot be held negligent or contributorily negligent. That assumption can be rebutted if the other side produces evidence concerning that child's intelligence, experience, and other such factors are such that that child should be held liable for negligence. If the jury (or judge) is convinced that those fators should make the child liable, then that child can be held liable. Minors over 14/15 can be held negligent.

This indicates that, at least in the Civil Realm, Children of a certain age range are given the benefit of the doubt that their young age should relieve them of responsibilty, unless the other side can make a convincing case that there are other factors that should make that child responsible. I would translate that benefit of the doubt to the criminal side, but would not allow the transfer of the balancing test. Though a balancing test can be used to make a child civilly liable in the same way as an adult, using such a balancing test to determine whether a child should be punished as an adult for a crime would be innapropriate. It would allow too much discretion, and would almost certainly violate equal protection. Though I would hold children of this age group criminally liable, I would not try them as adults. Therefore, no DP for the 8-14 crowd.

Giving the DP to a 15 year old would be problematic in a jurisdiction that gives the rebuttable assumption to 15 year olds. I think that, if the child is eligible for that rebuttable assumption, then they should not be eligible for the DP, nor should they be tried as an adult. This is a gray area, and one that I'll address later.

This leaves the 16-17 age range. This range can be held civilly liable in the same way as adults. This reflects a understanding that they are mature enough to act in a reasonable, socially acceptable manner. This should translate to the criminal side as well, and 16-17 year olds should be punished as adults, and that includes DP.

If you want to tie this to the rights aspect, consider this:
most states allow 16 year olds the right to drive a car. Since they are entrusting a dangerous instrumentality into their hands, then you must assume that the state is trusting those minors to exercise that right in a safe manner. Since the state is assuming that a 16 year old has enough judgement to prudently use an instrumentality s dangerous as a car, it stands to reason that they expect the minor to appreciate things like safe behavior and the possibilty of the consequences of reckless behavior. Since these 16 year old drivers are given the right to use the road, they are putting the saftey of others in the hands of these 16 year olds. That indicates to me that the state believes people of this age have enough of a grasp of life and death to be held accountable for their criminal actions. Therefore, I'd allow the DP to be applied to 16 and 17 year olds. If the state allows 15 year olds to drive, I'd extend the DP to 15 year olds.

quote: We are left in the precarious situation where we impose adult responsibility on those who cannot exercise the rights which those responsibilities are tied to.

The above is my answer to these concerns.

	02-03-2005 03:03									#64
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Well, 5 out of 4 SC justices felt that the line was better drawn at 18, not 16.

	02-03-2005 03:05									#65
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Wycoff, would you then change statutory rape laws to decriminalize having sex with 16 year olds if you are an adult?

	02-03-2005 03:06									#66
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Unless you meant something entirely different, I have to go by the words you put on the screen.

The statement should be read thusly:

quote: You're assuming that a jury would be unable to determinethat any juvenile could have a mental state that would make him culpable for a capital crime. I think that that's ridiculous.

I should have written it more clearly...

	02-03-2005 03:11									#67
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Wycoff, would you then change statutory rape laws to decriminalize having sex with 16 year olds if you are an adult?

That's a tough one. Probably not, as I think consent to sexual relations with an adult is more analgous to a 16 year old contracting with an adult than it is to a 16 year old being entrusted by the state to safely operate a dangerous instrumentality.

Giving a 16 year old a driver's liscense doesn't indicate that the state trusts thtat a 16 year old knows or should know what's best for itself, it just indicates that the state assumes that a 16 year old should be able to fully understand that you need to act in a manner that is safe and does not harm others. It implies that a 16 year old understands that he could kill someone through his actions, that killing someone is wrong, and trusts that the 16 year old will act in a manner so as to not kill someone.

	02-03-2005 03:17									#68
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Do you truly believe 16 year olds like the one from this case are incapable of doing a cost-benefit analysis regarding the commission of their crime?

Wholly incapable? No.

Less likely to do so as capably as a mature adult? You bet your arse.

	02-03-2005 03:28									#69
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In English criminal law, we have a raft of measures to protect juvenile defendants. Restrictions on how and when they can be incarcerated. Specialist courts designed to be less intimidating to the young. Restrictions on sentencing- such as the replacement of the "Life" sentence with the "at Her Majesty's pleasure", usually in secure local authority homes rather than prisons.

It's been a feature of English law since the 10th century, in fact.

If you're right, Ozzy, how many of those protections should go? Have the devious little shits just ben pulling the wool over our eyes for centuries?

	02-03-2005 04:11									#70
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Allthough, I don't think minors should be tried as adults. I do believe the court overstepped their boundaries. If the legislatures have defined common consensus than the supreme court shouldn't redefine it. They really stretched cruel and unusual punishment, if it's not cruel or unusual for one class; I'm having a hard time seeing how it's cruel or unusual for another class. BTW I disagreed with the retarted decision as well on the same grounds.

	02-03-2005 04:15									#71
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If some is generally so dangerous that there would be a significant escape danger or that they would be dangerous to the lives of others in prison, society should not refrain from protecting itself.

	02-03-2005 04:31									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard Allthough, I don't think minors should be tried as adults. I do believe the court overstepped their boundaries. If the legislatures have defined common consensus than the supreme court shouldn't redefine it.

Then you may as well toss the protection against cruel and unsual punishments from the Constitution. The whole poit of the Rill of Rights it to protect us from a legislature which oversteps its bounds, and that is what the Court has done.

	02-03-2005 04:36									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi If some is generally so dangerous that there would be a significant escape danger or that they would be dangerous to the lives of others in prison, society should not refrain from protecting itself.

This is a faulty argument. You won't know until after sentencing what risks a person poses for escape or to others in prison.

	02-03-2005 04:44									#74
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Well, one thing is for sure, if they're not old enough to kill then they're not old enough to vote. I hope this puts a permanent freeze on the idea of lowering the voting age.

	02-03-2005 04:48									#75
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quote: Currently, 19 states allow executions for people under age 18: Arizona, Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Utah, Texas and Virginia.

Ignorant reporter failed to mention AR Senate passed, 24 to 9 no less, a bill banning under 18 yo death penalty just about two weeks ago.

	02-03-2005 04:48									#76
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It's wrong when the state kills people out of revenge. It's particularly wrong when the state kills children out of revenge.

	02-03-2005 04:54									#77
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Incidentally, a bill to abolish the DP just passed the NM House. Hopefully Richardson won't be a ***** about it.

	02-03-2005 04:59									#78
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quote: Teens (over 13-14 or so) are generally as capable and rational as adults, thus shouldn't suffer unequal treatment.

What age does Ozzy agree with pedophilia and MANBLA? Also 13-14?

	02-03-2005 05:46									#80
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP

So you believe 13-14 year olds are rational enough to vote and stand trial, but not who they have sex with? You prefer I make assumptions or is that an uncomfortable subject for you?

	02-03-2005 06:06									#81
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http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...30&pagenumber=5

Ben Kenobi:

quote: I am especially curious to hear Ozzy's take on this

Jaguar:

quote: I second BK. I wanna hear what Ozzy has to say about htis.

Again, if this is an uncomfortable subject for you then nevermind.

	02-03-2005 06:37									#82
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Have you been obsessing over this issue since that thread? Get a life.

I've no problems answering it, but I don't see what it has to do with the death penalty beyond the fact you are a troll that is trying to trap me by making absurd, emotional comparisons to pedophiles instead of argue an issue rationally.

	02-03-2005 06:54									#83
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Have you been obsessing over this issue since that thread?

No, just wanted to point out I wasn't the only one who wondered.

quote: I've no problems answering it, but I don't see what it has to do with the death penalty beyond the fact you are a troll that is trying to trap me by making absurd, emotional comparisons to pedophiles instead of argue an issue rationally.

Relax. I, BK and/or Jag are not trying to "trap you" over what teenagers are rational about. If I wanted to "trap you" I would do a much better job than that.

I don't see what your cell phone post has to do with the death penalty, but apparently you did. Again, if this upsets you so much then nevermind.

	02-03-2005 07:02									#84
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fantastic ruling. really sent shockwaves through my office today.



Not that it affects me personally, the "worst" crimes I defend juvis for are molests/arsons/burglaries etc, no murders, but still...

I wish I had gotten here earlier in the discussion, but alas...


(I wonder if I knew the appellate attorneys on this, I interned at one of the Missouri Public Defender Capital division offices a couple of years back! And I love to see the MO AG be humiliated like this, the *****!)

	02-03-2005 09:16									#85
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The whole legislating from the bench is getting more than tiresome especially since they can't seem to make up their mind. 15 years ago it was one way now its another.

I find the majority opinion being based upon a building national consensus fraudulent and further an appeal to use of international precedent as laughable. Be that as it may the inconsistency of legally defined adulthood as 18 flies in the face of potential consequences for 16-17 yr olds could face.

	02-03-2005 09:51									#86
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quote: Then you may as well toss the protection against cruel and unsual punishments from the Constitution. The whole poit of the Rill of Rights it to protect us from a legislature which oversteps its bounds, and that is what the Court has done.

Sorry should have been clearer. The supreme court has every right to decide what act is cruel and unususial. But not in my opinion to decide on who it is performed. It is no more cruel to put a 17 year old to death than to put a 30 year old to death. A developing national consensus is not a basis for a judgement.

In truth, If the supreme court had decided that a 17 year old couldn't be tried as an adult, than I would try to find some basis to agree that it's in their purview. Maybe the 18 year old to vote ammendment.

	02-03-2005 10:18									#87
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I'm with DD. I may be favorably disposed to the ending of executions, but the reasoning used by the majority in this case is pretty flimsy.

	02-03-2005 10:35									#88
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quote: The whole legislating from the bench is getting more than tiresome especially since they can't seem to make up their mind. 15 years ago it was one way now its another.

Yes, standards change. As for this 'legislating from the bench', I wonder if people forget that we are a COMMON LAW country, hence, legislating from the bench is an inherant part of our system.

	02-03-2005 10:42									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The Supreme Court is interpreter of the Constitution.

The key word in that sentence is Constitution, not the national mood.

quote: It is absolutely riduculous to have the legislature decide what that means.

What exactly is riduculous about saying that the people's representatives would be better at determining the national consensus (according to the Court's poor logic) than a group of people they had no hand in electing?

quote: They are not entrusted with interpreting the Constitution. The Supreme Court has done its Constitutional duty.

I really wasn't aware that SCOTUS was entrusted was to make political judgements with barely a fig leaf of legal justification.

	02-03-2005 10:48									#90
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No doubt precedent etc. does play a vital role in our law making, however when one listens to the majority opinion speaking towards national consensus (with no data to support such a trend and truth be told data supporting the flipside arguement namely a majority of state that allow capital punishment likewise allow for DP for 16-17 yr olds) and attributing OUR laws to trends happening in the world then realistically one can call the majority decision legislating against the popular will of the people (or at least for those states employing the DP) despite the claim of the majority opinion.

All that being said, I still think it was a correct decision (based solely upon 18 yrs old consituting citizenship). But moreover disagree with the rationale posited by the majority opinion.