20-06-2005 15:52									#451
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Presumably the missing Hooker, Prop and Lock with the ABs would normally be the heart of the Otago pack – because without them it was pretty weak. The Otago Fly half looked useful though.

He is. And the absence of the AB reps is relevant too. As it has been for all the provincial matches. The provinces are below strength, as, indeed, the Lions teams haven't been full strength. Which, all up, makes it difficult to size up the big picture.

quote: You will have seen from the squad news for Southlands that Henson and Murphy will not make the first test. That’s criminal as it means Clive is thinking of playing Jones-Wilko at 10 and 12. Jason Robinson is not named for tomorrow as that’s even more criminal if Clive is thinking of playing him in Christchurch – he simply hasn’t done anything on tour to warrant such selection. I have to say I am worried – Clive said he would pick on form but it looks like in certain positions he is going to pick favourites again.

I'm with Kalius. Regardless of Henson's qualifications, I really don't think Clive would telegraph his Test team as blatantly as he would seem to have.

Oh, and I listened to England -v- Australia on Five Live yesterday. We were beaten by a Bok by two inches. The margin by which he survived Ponting's run out attempt. Regardless, the Bok is obviously a magnificent striker of the ball. I haven't seen him in action but he sounds very much like Adam Gilchrist on song - you just can't bowl to him. He will smash you, regardless. Vastly improved effort from the Australians, though. They're gradually getting it together.

	20-06-2005 16:39									#452
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Well they needn't bother thanks.

The Bok is a fine Englishman indeed. There's potential there to become a great player.

Is Clive playing a clever game? I simply do not know. My fear is that he is being just as obvious as it appears he is with regards to test selection.

	20-06-2005 20:10									#453
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Well they needn't bother thanks. The Bok is a fine Englishman indeed. There's potential there to become a great player.

As long as there's more to his game than the big hitting. But the impressive thing about yesterday's effort was his patience. He waited until (a) he'd well and truly played himself in; and (b) he decided the time was right. Hopefully A. Gilchrist will get his eye in and repay in spades. There's no better sight than a genuine clean hitter in action because they're not sloggers.

quote: Is Clive playing a clever game? I simply do not know. My fear is that he is being just as obvious as it appears he is with regards to test selection.

But why would you announce publicly that players who are/aren't selected for a particular match are therefore/therefore not in the Test team? For whose benefit is the announcement made?

	21-06-2005 12:55									#454
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Well fingers crossed Gilchrist doesn't repay anything - an England win in the Ashes is what the sport needs most right now.

As to the latter I do not know. It's nearly half time as I write and it's another scrappy game. The Lions started brightly but it has slipped into being another error fest.

Lewsey was right when he said yesterday that the test side will have to up it's performance 30% or they will get a pasting.

	21-06-2005 13:57									#455
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Final score was Southlands 16 Lions 26.

By all accounts a terrible showing from the Lions so they were lucky it was only Southlands they faced - and many players fully vindicated Clive's decision to make them dirt trackers. I'll know more when I watch the game later.

Right now the ABs are red hot favourites for Saturday - hope I am proved totally wrong on that of course.

	21-06-2005 17:03									#456
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Reads like a crap effort on the BBC website. And a couple of tries to Henson. Possibly meaningless against ordinary oppo.

	22-06-2005 12:52									#457
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Worse still Clive was being obvious. Of the players that took no part yesterday Shane Williams is perhaps the most notable one that misses out.

Wilko makes Outside centre and Robinson is fullback (Insane! He has no game time there). Other selections I am happier with but I'll discuss them later.

British & Irish Lions: Jason Robinson; Josh Lewsey, Brian O'Driscoll (captain), Jonny Wilkinson, Gareth Thomas; Stephen Jones, Dwayne Peel; Gethin Jenkins, Shane Byrne, Julian White, Paul O'Connell, Ben Kay, Richard Hill, Neil Back, Martin Corry (vice-captain).

Replacements: Steve Thompson, Graham Rowntree, Danny Grewcock, Ryan Jones, Matt Dawson, Will Greenwood, Shane Horgan.

Whats worse I have noticed that the psycho head stamper Ali Williams is in the AB squad. I'm praying they don't play him - he is lethal on a rugby pitch.

Last edited by Havak on 22-06-2005 at 13:49

	22-06-2005 15:03									#458
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It's get better - we might have our token NH ref for the first test (Jutge) but the other three officials are all Aussies, including Dickinson whose claim to fame is he lets ABs lay all over the ball and red cards anyone trying to ruck them off it.

And Dickinson is involved in all three tests.

The second and third tests give us two Aussies and two Boks each time.

Jutge is the only NH official involved in any of the three games - and is only involved once that I can see.

This all seems pretty unreasonable until you realise that Jutge is France's only man on the A panel - and that the IRB only had 7 men to pick from the A panel whose countries were not involved. Even so Jutge should have been involved more than once simply on balance of probabilities!

	22-06-2005 15:06									#459
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well i guess he's gone with wilko out inside centre to favour the playtime stephen jones has had with dwayne peel. And wilko is a very good defensive player in the tackle etc. So i can see why that choice over henson on his current form. Still wilko hasn't been in the thick of it so there must be a bit of match rustiness in his game still?

Robinson at fullback i can live with, in that when he does play there he is good under high ball and seems to like the position as an attacking platform.

Clives selection has got some interesting 'what ifs?' in it, but overall i'm kinda interested to see how it does against the AB machine

If it all goes horribly wrong then i can start to complain about the lack of welshplayers etc

The predominance of southern hemisphere match officals is a bit worrying, still if the Lions do win the series, then it will be an additional feather in their cap. If not then we can probably fairly point to some of the iffy refereing decisions(especialy around the ruck) and cry foul.

So its all good. Is it only being shown on Sky? I've missed all the matchs so far- so need to make some plans to not miss the main events.

	22-06-2005 15:26									#460
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Didn't I read only the other day the England defence coach bagging Wilkinson's defence capabilities since his shoulder injury? Or was that sour grapes because he missed out on a Lions management spot?

Who's at 8? Hill or Corry? The Brit method of listing the team baffles me.

	22-06-2005 15:27									#461
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Yes only on Sky Sports - specifically Sky Sports 1.

Plenty of Places have got special licences for the 8:10am kick offs though so you should find somewhere to have some 'breakfast'

Quite right I think in that the Peel-Jones combo has worked so well it makes sense to keep it. Jonny is certainly there for his defensive ability over that of Gavin - but I also think it points towards a game plan of kicking deep to touch because with O'Connell and Kay selected they are clearly targetting the AB line out. Henson has a big boot but Jonny has the accuracy.

I note by the way that Williams starts at 5 for the ABs so I hope he plays rugby for once and overcomes his regular problem with red mist.

(Note to Ravagon - some English locks have bad reps but if you look at Shaw and Grewcock last year their discipline trouble was all reactive stuff whereas to me Williams starts too much dangerous play off his own back. He just has a nasty tendency to stand on peoples heads when he gets frustrated.)

I don't see Robinson actually playing at FB - I think it's kidology and that he will actually play on the wing (left wing most probably).

There will certainly be some dodgy reffing. Cole is an unknown quantity to me ( a new Aussie on the block) but I have seen Jutge and Kaplan enough to know we have some interesting interpretations ahead of us.

	22-06-2005 19:03									#462
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quote: Originally posted by Havak (Note to Ravagon - some English locks have bad reps but if you look at Shaw and Grewcock last year their discipline trouble was all reactive stuff whereas to me Williams starts too much dangerous play off his own back. He just has a nasty tendency to stand on peoples heads when he gets frustrated.)

Okay, we'll overlook Grewcock's effort when he extended his size 21 boot over the ruck and tried to kick the Taffy - from memory it was against the Taffys - in the head.

	23-06-2005 14:06									#463
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Okay so Grewcock stepped over the ruck and caught the guy on the head. It was reckless and stupid but it was one rake.

Are you really comparing it to Williams assault on Lewsey?

Josh gets caught on the wrong side and should have got a little of what he deserved - what he actually got was Williams pumping up and down on his head like an industrial press.

I might admire Jonno for telling Josh to "shut up and take the bullet" over it but Williams is a psycho and got away with ridiculously dangerous play over it. What did he get again - a six week ban to run in the kiwi close season?

Thats why I chuckled when a Kiwi on the BBC boards said Backy would not be playing water boy if banned in NZ - he wouldn't be allowed in the stadium. A Bath fan of all people beat me to pointing out no one would be allowed in the stadium because the NZ Union would have made sure the ban ran when there were no games.

	23-06-2005 17:16									#464
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Zinzan:

"Most of the New Zealand public have written the Lions off and are talking more about the margin of victory in the first Test rather than worrying about whether the men in black will win it.

The New Zealand public and media are doing their usual thing of thinking their rugby side are unbeatable. But that has been disproven so many times before.

A team needs to be brimming with confidence, in fact arrogance. But there is a fine line between that and over-confidence and that, to me, is the All Blacks' biggest weakness."

And there you have it - the Lions best chance is that NZ run out in the same frame of mind they did in the RWC semi - thinking they had already won the final?

Where is Ravagon when you need a good rise?

And where are the French boys - was there any reaction to their draw with South Africa?

	23-06-2005 18:02									#465
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Okay so Grewcock stepped over the ruck and caught the guy on the head. It was reckless and stupid but it was one rake. Are you really comparing it to Williams assault on Lewsey?

It's not about comparisons. Grewcock's intent was clearly deliberate. And wasn't he suspended domestically for jumping on or punching people? My point is that you're on dodgy ground including Grewcock in your "England locks only retaliate" club. That aside, I think he's a no talent anyway.

But, as you say, where is the Sandgroper Kiwi when you want to take the p*ss out of him!?

As for les grenouilles, Tamerlin has obviously gone underground to avoid me, and LDiCesares is probably having drinking lessons. Didn't he say he only drank after a match?

	23-06-2005 18:18									#466
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Yes he did but I assumed he was fibbing. A player who only drinks after matches? Only if there are 365 games a year.

Yeah okay Danny G is suspect for red mist. I don't think the incident you quoted is the best to cite for him though...he has done worse (didn't he get carded in Australia last year?). And he is after all Bath skipper so I cede the floor to you - you are correct in anything you say about him.

My favourite young lock Deacon was yellow carded against Canada for a bit of handbags last weekend. Clearly he is devleoping into our new Jonno quite nicely.

More silly stuff from the kiwi camp - Wayne Smith saying he is suprised at how many Lions are talking to the ref. Weeelllll okay Wayne - but you did coach Northampton for three seasons with Matt Dawson as your captain and by the end of your tenure every man jack at Saints was whining at the referee every second. So what is your point again?

	23-06-2005 18:52									#467
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Yes he did but I assumed he was fibbing. A player who only drinks after matches? Only if there are 365 games a year.

I'm surprised he hasn't asked you for lessons.

quote: And he is after all Bath skipper so I cede the floor to you - you are correct in anything you say about him.

quote: More silly stuff from the kiwi camp - Wayne Smith saying he is suprised at how many Lions are talking to the ref. Weeelllll okay Wayne - but you did coach Northampton for three seasons with Matt Dawson as your captain and by the end of your tenure every man jack at Saints was whining at the referee every second. So what is your point again?

More to the point, didn't he also say - I think it was him - that he was happy to see a basically England pack because they're so predictable.

	23-06-2005 21:09									#468
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It's time to start thinking about a new thread title...I heard a slang term being used by a Kiwi commentator a while ago that I thought was pretty funny, but I can't remember what it was...

	23-06-2005 21:14									#469
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That's helpful! But we've got a whole list of national teams to warn to keep their hands off the ball. England, the worst offenders - who should have gone first! - have to be next.

Rugby - Hands Off, White!

	25-06-2005 00:48									#470
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quote: Originally posted by finbar That's helpful! But we've got a whole list of national teams to warn to keep their hands off the ball. England, the worst offenders - who should have gone first! - have to be next. Rugby - Hands Off, White!

As a 'red' supporter - i'd have to agree

got a bbc link here with all the players faced off against each other from both teams.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rug...nal/4122882.stm

Now just looking at the mug shots, i'd have to say that to a man the AB team look the most dangerous. If that means they play better rugby then i think i'll have to tip them

	25-06-2005 02:09									#471
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quote: Originally posted by finbar That's helpful! But we've got a whole list of national teams to warn to keep their hands off the ball. England, the worst offenders - who should have gone first! - have to be next. Rugby - Hands Off, White!

	25-06-2005 13:18									#472
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BOD has dislocated his shoulder. End of his tour, unfortunately. I'm having to follow the match via the updates on the BBC website because there's no online broadcast! 11-0 just after half time. Sounds - or reads - like the Lions lineout is a mess. Presumably Havak is choking on his Weetabix in front of the TV.

	25-06-2005 13:20									#473
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor As a 'red' supporter - i'd have to agree

Don't worry, you're next!

quote: got a bbc link here with all the players faced off against each other from both teams. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rug...nal/4122882.stm Now just looking at the mug shots, i'd have to say that to a man the AB team look the most dangerous. If that means they play better rugby then i think i'll have to tip them

Only their mothers could love 'em!

EDIT. Mmmmm. Now 21-0 with what reads like a classic AB try.

	25-06-2005 18:08									#474
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quote: Didn't he say he only drank after a match?

After rugby. That includes training sessions.

Here they are showing the match between France and the Boks on Canal+, a paying channel which I don't have. So I feel like this:

	25-06-2005 21:16									#475
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You feel like Tamerlin?

Anyway, despite your understandable fury, it was very good spirited of you not to mention the Lions loss to the All Blacks.

	25-06-2005 23:20									#476
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Well my hunch was right - The ABs played a winning game, commited and strong. The lions looked like yesterdays men for much of the game.

Still maybe more of the boyo's will get a lookin for the next test

well done NewZealand.(damnit! )

	26-06-2005 00:41									#477
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Well, I'd rather mention the loss of France versus South Africa. At least these north hemisphere players scored a try, and they have the excuse of having played a few young players. Let's jsut hope Laporte will pick up a team good enough to beat Australia next week. I'm oetty sure I won't be able to see the match either.
(I suspect I have a bout of Tamerlinitis)

	26-06-2005 13:03									#478
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In his ongoing absence, we're going to rename you LDiTamerlin! A licence to be as as you want to be!

The France -v- Australia game will be interesting. The Wallabies have smashed Samoa - no surprise - and, only the other day, Italy. But Italy had just, literally, arrived from Argentina and would have been jetlagged and exhausted.

	26-06-2005 13:22									#479
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Well my hunch was right - The ABs played a winning game, commited and strong. The lions looked like yesterdays men for much of the game. Still maybe more of the boyo's will get a lookin for the next test well done NewZealand.(damnit! )

Naturally I didn't see or hear any of the match! But young master O'Driscoll seems to be crying spear tackle and more re his injury. Thoughts?

Oh, and I note that young master Grewcock had another attack of the red mist. He might, in future, have a decent feed before he enters the playing field to guard against feeling peckish when he sees an oppo jersey.

	26-06-2005 13:24									#480
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quote: But young master O'Driscoll seems to be crying spear tackle and more re his injury. Thoughts?

He was clearly lifted up and dumped by Umaga and Mealamu in a ruck. Illegal. And highly so.