10-06-2005 12:42									#391
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But it is gospel, every word of it, surely?

The only Scot for Saturdays game has had to drop out and has been replaced by a Paddy - Taylor aggravated his hamstring in training and is replaced by Easterby (the man who replaced Dayglo on the tour).

	10-06-2005 14:09									#392
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I see Fiji almost gave the ABs an opposed training run? Apparently all it lacked was full contact tackling?

I actually think it's a great result for the Lions - AB overconfidence has killed them in all the big games for 18 years and boy will they be overconfident now?

*edit* I wonder if Ravagon can tell me what part of NZ Sitiveni Sivivatu comes from?

Last edited by Havak on 10-06-2005 at 16:01

	10-06-2005 21:39									#393
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For that matter, what part of New Zealand does ravagon come from? North Auckland?

	11-06-2005 07:21									#394
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It could be worse. I could hail from West Auckland.

	11-06-2005 07:26									#395
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I actually think it's a great result for the Lions - AB overconfidence has killed them in all the big games for 18 years and boy will they be overconfident now?

So you would have me believe that an AB loss to Fiji would be seen as bad news for the Lions then?
Just imagine if Fiji had nearly put up an unanswered ton ... The Lions might as well've gone home?

[Edit: Flippin' spelling.]

	11-06-2005 14:46									#396
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Quick notes from ye olde game:

- Lions defensively look very good. That Maori squad does have some game breaking runners like Tipoki, Gear, MacDonald, and McAllister, and none of them (except MacDonald's try) came close to breaking it

- Lions scrum ate the Maori one piecemeal until Sheridan got sinbinned (if you're going to punch someone make sure you hit so he can't play again ). Hayman looked very small indeed.

- Walsh was crap (shock). Missed some obvious infringements and had no control on the events going on between the two packs. Simon Shaw had a few blatant boots in the head which weren't anything close to rucking. Wasn't Mr. Shawsent off for less by a Kiwi ref last year?

- Dawson showed why he is a 3rd rate half back. Awful passing.

- Jones looked good considering he had Dawson passing to him

- D'Arcy should just go home. When you flip a player without the ball with 20 minutes to go out of frustration you may as well go home. You're not a thug.

- Shane Williams. He's 4' 10" and as light as a feather. Frankly he'll have no chance taking on people like Tana Umaga, Ma'a Nonu, et al. So, there must be a reason he is on there, right? I assumed it would be his god given talents with the ball in hand, but apparantly Mr Woodward and the rest of the Lions back line think differently.

- Was O'Connell the only one playing for his jersey out there?

- Michael Owen needs to run when he has the ball in hand, not try to dance around Rico Gear, Luke McAllister et al. Hit a ruck for once!

- Thompson's throwing was about as accurate as a spewing cat. Poor Simon Shaw couldn't get anything decent, and the one time he did, Shaw started off the only go-forward ball the Lions had in the first half.

I don't think the loss was representative of the test side as a whole, but frankly there are a good number of people who can put their bums in their armchairs for the flight home.

	11-06-2005 17:32									#397
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rug...nal/4080356.stm

I'll catch the match on Sunday grandstand(i hope). I cant put the loss down to having too many englishmen in the side either It was a farely even anglo-welsh mix with the odd irishman in the mix.

Shame we cant seem to blend so well

As for comment on the game i'll wait till i've seen it and give my take on it for you to tear down

	13-06-2005 12:07									#398
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Mmm. Well that'd be their wake-up call I guess. It was always going to be a tough one though.
I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that they won't win a single test but they have a lot of work in front of them.

I don't particularly think they can take automatic wins in all of their other games either. Auckland and Canterbury, for starters, will probably put together very tough performances - particularly if the Lions are saving their better players for the tests.

They shouldn't really have too much trouble in Wellington though.

	13-06-2005 13:16									#399
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quote: So you would have me believe that an AB loss to Fiji would be seen as bad news for the Lions then?

Bizarrely in some ways I would yes.

The ABs are at their very worst when expected to sweep all before them – and at their best when fighting back out of a corner. Lets hope for your sake they learned lessons from RWC 2003 about over confidence?

Well I said the Maori game would be my barometer for the series - and I agree with Ravagon there is now considerable worry that the tests will be one sided affairs. But hopefully the Abs can bounce back and make a fight of it (Joking!).

I suspect the Lions will probably beat all the Provincial sides as it happens. Wednesdays squad starts to have a test look about it – probably the only change I would have off hand is ditch Thomas and play Murphy. The Maoris had to get very 'creative' to assemble that side in the first place as well didn’t they - McDonald and Hollah etc are Maoris?

By crikey the Lions were poor going forward though weren't they? Defensively they were quite impressive and it took consistent poor refereeing to let the Maoris score. Walsh is something of a controversial choice here given his appalling conduct at the world cup and he did enough to prove again that he has no idea about the coal face (wrongly pinging White several times) and is perhaps a little suspect when asked to be impartial with British players. He made Hoeniss look good – and I can think of no greater insult.

All that aside though the Maoris were clearly hungrier and you cannot deny them the fact they deserved to win for that alone.

Not many Lions players did themselves any good from this one, some ruled themselves out of the tests completely I think. For example I disagree with Kalius – Jones had a bad game with a touch of the headless chicken about his decision making, Owen has blown his test chances as has Williams. Sheridan was stupid to get caught for retaliation – lack of experience showing?

Sadly the problem may have been too few Englishmen – and perhaps one too many as Hill had a poor game.

One of the very few pluses was O’Connell – he looks a test certainty, probably alongside Shaw or Kay. A back row of Back-Corry-Moody is starting to look a real possibility too.

On showings so far Hodgson is the form Ten - and you have no idea how much that scares me!!! Hope Jonny comes through well on Wednesday.

	13-06-2005 13:30									#400
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quote: Originally posted by Havak The Maoris had to get very 'creative' to assemble that side in the first place as well didn’t they - McDonald and Hollah etc are Maoris?

I'm sure I warned you about this. They weren't (quite) too Caucasian to qualify.
IIRC though you only need to be 1/16th part Maori. That pretty much rules out only the first generation since nationhood. Anybody else born within the last 120-odd years with any Maori blood whatsoever in the family tree is eligible.


Bizarrely (in some ways) I too hope Jonny makes it through Wednesday.

	13-06-2005 15:14									#401
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You did warn me.

Strangely I have just been discussing it with a Saints fan and a Moseley fan (they can't help it they were born in the areas concerned) and the Saints fan came out with a classic as we discussed the 1/16th thing:

"Yes well at least the Maoris are an NZ team - the ABs are the Pacific Island equivalents of the Lions".

I liked it anyway.

Where is Sitiveni Sivivatu from again?

	13-06-2005 17:31									#402
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Ah Havak! Nice to see you up and about for the day. I popped my head into the thread at around 9am my time. Not a sign of you. I thought you'd've been into work extra early keen to pore over the entrails of the match. Gee, hasn't Italy brought out the poet in me?

I've been having to count on the websites for info about the matches. Though, presumably, the BBC website will provide a broadcast of the Tests. With ADSL, I should be able to listen in.

	13-06-2005 18:40									#403
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9am your time? I'm parking up and dreaming of caffeine.

Is the beeb webcasting the matches? Normally webcast rights are domestic only where sport is concerned. More than that I am not sure the beeb even has UK rights to webcast these games.

Hmm, just checked the five live extra schedule - no webcast. Doesn't look like the world service is covering it either. Fingers crossed I am wrong.

	13-06-2005 21:41									#404
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Mmmm. I just checked too. I think you're right. The broadcasts aren't available online. Just endless broadcasts of the Australians smashing England off the park in the cricket. I'll have to hunt around elsewhere for a broadcast. I wonder if the Kiwis have discovered the wonders of the wireless yet ...

	14-06-2005 12:21									#405
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I spoke too soon. England won a silly 20/20 game. I saw one on TV before I left. A nonsensical game designed by marketers!

	14-06-2005 12:42									#406
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Don't like the format myself - but beating Australia by 100 runs is always enjoyable.

Moody injured his knee in training so Hill replaces him on the bench tomorrow.

Derek 'Robbo' Robson touched on the Lions on his BBC web spot:

quote: I often think there must be a better response to a Haka than to stand there staring back in a desperate attempt to not look intimidated. The correct English response would be to don ribbons and bells and mince about muttering some maudlin Wiltshire folk song. That is scary. Of course, the Irish could Riverdance along the halfway line, the Scots could puts some swords on the ground and skip about and the Welsh could read some drunken poetry. All stuff to confuse and terrify even the mightiest All Black. The question is, which dance is Woodward going to get his Lions to all do together? And can he get them to do anything together? The Maori blew them away - even the huge forwards Clive stuck out there. You'd think if they'd be good at anything, the Lions would be good at mauling. Any road, the signs aren't too clever for the tourists - no one's done anything much yet, really. Perhaps this Lions song the Power of Four will bring the Home Nations together as one. I doubt it. In any case, the song should be called The Power Of Three Plus A Scotsman, If He's Lucky.

	14-06-2005 13:12									#407
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On a different matter entirely the Franco-German empire is again trying to drive the UK out of the EU.

The French are after our rebate and their buddies in Germany are rolling over for them - hilarious in itself given French farmers bleed the EU dry and the UK is already a much higher net contributor per capita than France even with the rebate.

Typical French politicos - ignore the facts and just rant about the English and you can get through any domestic problems. Well sorry Mr Chirac but your people rejected the constitution that you staked your reputation on - tough tumshy!

	14-06-2005 13:38									#408
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by Havak [/SIZE Moody injured his knee in training so Hill replaces him on the bench tomorrow.

I gather Hill didn't cover himself with glory against the Maori?

quote: Derek 'Robbo' Robson touched on the Lions on his BBC web spot:

Who is he?

	14-06-2005 13:45									#409
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quote: Originally posted by Havak On a different matter entirely the Franco-German empire is again trying to drive the UK out of the EU. The French are after our rebate and their buddies in Germany are rolling over for them - hilarious in itself given French farmers bleed the EU dry and the UK is already a much higher net contributor per capita than France even with the rebate. Typical French politicos - ignore the facts and just rant about the English and you can get through any domestic problems. Well sorry Mr Chirac but your people rejected the constitution that you staked your reputation on - tough tumshy!

Sounds like the whole thing is shaky indeed. Les grenouilles and the Edam Munchers voting down the constitution, and I heard a long piece on the World Service the other night canvassing the possibilities of flicking the Euro altogether and reverting to the national currencies. Popular thought in Germany, apparently.

And speaking of the World Service, earlier this year they cut back their broadcasts in English to my part of the world! I only get it at certain times during the day and from around 7pm till 11pm!

Grey, cool and showery here today. How is it in your neck of the woods?

	14-06-2005 16:03									#410
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Intermittently Overcast, slightly windy but the temperature is pleasant enough (about 18C).

Hill was not strong against the Maori - in fact the Maori back row bossed the Lions back row. Owen was shown up for a man with good skills in the loose but not enough grunt in the contact area. Corry is a cert unless he gets injured.

'Robbo' does the sport humour column - I don't know much more about him. Sometimes it is very funny.

Yes the Euro is unpopular - when it was introduced everywhere did what the UK did with decimilisation - that is bump prices considerably. Last time I went to Ireland in October they were still hugely anti-Euro for this reason.

Whoever is steering the good ship EU is starting to get it wrong massively. The expansion last year was ill considered landing us with many new members who will not be net contributors for many decades. As a side effect it has resulted in huge numbers of immigrants from these countries placing absolutely huge strain on housing and affecting wage settlements for everyone (the newbies are doing minimum wage stuff mainly - food factories in Leicestershire for example).

The EU is a powder keg about to burst in the UK - and with appalling timing this is when Chirac decides to rattle the UK cage. I suspect it really would not take much more to have the UK stick two fingers up to the EU and walk away. We should perhaps take the pain early so we don't get drawn into this huge Federal superstate that is being built by stealth (i.e without asking the electorates).

The bottom line I guess is that Chirac and Shroeder putting their names to the rebate debate pretty much guarantees they won't get what they want - they should have played it far more subtly and had other members raise it for them.

	14-06-2005 20:13									#411
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Can we go back to the start for a second? Les grenouilles and the Edam Eaters just voted down the EU constitution? So the EU is in place without a constitution? Or have I missed something?

	14-06-2005 20:25									#412
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We need an expert - but I believe it is in place on the back of a series of treaties.

The Constitution was an attempt to go the extra mile and create a formal Federation of states bound by it.

It's getting tasty - anytime now Blair is meeting Chirac and saying "Non!".

Chirac after all is a lame duck after the French referendum - whilst Blair still has a commanding domestic position.

	15-06-2005 00:10									#413
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quote: Originally posted by Havak We need an expert - but I believe it is in place on the back of a series of treaties. The Constitution was an attempt to go the extra mile and create a formal Federation of states bound by it.

A-ha. I see. Gee, they've gone an awful long way down a very complicated road without the certainty of something like a constitution. Oh well, it's Europe. My favourite part of the world.

Do we think ravagon will follow any of this NH in-house natter?

quote: It's getting tasty - anytime now Blair is meeting Chirac and saying "Non!". Chirac after all is a lame duck after the French referendum - whilst Blair still has a commanding domestic position.

Yeah, cop that Tamerlin! Notice how he's absented himself since I've arrived in his hemisphere? Well, I have my spies out. A GPS device has been planted. I'll find him yet.

	15-06-2005 12:47									#414
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Noticed something interesting in one or two of the write-ups about the post-match interviews after the Maori game.
Clive now seems to be taking the tack that, well, perhaps it isn't such a bad thing to begin training a little harder now is it?
Having previously gone to great pains to emphasize the difference between his coaching this tour and Graham H. coaching the last one he's not backflipping just yet, but if he's bending a bit this early, without a test even having been played, what's he going to be doing after the first test (in the case the Lions lose of course - as a courtesy to somebody. )? The second? What if they lose to Auckland or Canterbury in the provincial games?

Would Clive like to be remembered as the coach who shot his mouth off before pulling a 180 degree turn and emulating his predecessor, or as the coach who stuck to his guns, didn't bend an inch, and threw away the tour?

	15-06-2005 13:13									#415
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I’m not sure what side of the fence Tamerlin and LDiCesare sit politically. I mean no offence to either of them when I tell their ******** of a Premier to keep his eyes off our rebate.

Arguments about the new member states paying for Britain’s rebate seem ludicrous when compared to the fact no country takes more subsidies out the CAP than France. It’s moot anyway – giving up our rebate is electoral suicide for Labours ambitions of changing Blair to Brown in 2009 so it simply won’t happen.

Picking up on Ravagon’s point about Clive it’s a topical one – there is much discussion here right now as to whether he is playing mind games to fool Henry. Although it has to be said that Clive is a more proven coach than Henry – Grand Slam and World cup winner versus man sacked by Wales and handed his arse by Australia (when he had the best Lions squad of all time to play with).

Seriously Ravagon I have understood since reading Sir Clive’s autobiography that he couldn’t care less what others think of him. If he does a U turn it will be because he thinks the squad needs it to stand a chance of winning – simple as that.

I happen to think personally that this is kidology – they have been doing plenty of full contact training anyway but I am sure they would like the ABs to think they have not.

As I write it has just gone half time and the Lions are totally dominant but fluffing chance after chance. Wellington are therefore still in it and it’s not the confidence boost the tourists needed so far…

*edit* Hoeniss is referee though so the Lions are playing 16 men. NZ seems to have an endless supply of awful referees these days?

	15-06-2005 13:21									#416
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Clive's a more proven coach than Henry?
Clive, who won the world cup by 3 points in overtime with one of the best English teams ever devised, versus a man who had Wales to work with?

And say what you will about Australia beating the last Lions side but the Wallabies really aren't all that bad, well, most of the time ...

	15-06-2005 14:14									#417
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Well as for the comments on the RWC final England did the best they could with yet another SH referee who does not understand scrums - suggest you read Jason Leonards comments on Andre Watson's handling of scrums in that final - Jason knows a lot more about the coal face than Andre.

And whilst on the face of it your point might seem to have merit surely it is better seen as Clive who won an emphatic grand slam with that same England team in 2003 versus Henry who took the All Blacks to third place in the tri-nations just last year?

The 2001 Lions should have creamed Australia - and Henry is almost single handedly responsible for them not doing so. He destroyed that squad well before the tests even started.

The Lions cruised past a poor Welington side without ever looking really convincing in the end. A better showing up front but some poor play from the backs. We might have to rely on that old favourite of the All Balcks beating themselves in the tests.

	15-06-2005 21:00									#418
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I don't recognise ravagon's address in the little sidebar to his posts. Australia? Is there somewhere called Australia?

	15-06-2005 22:09									#419
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quote: Originally posted by Havak The Maoris had to get very 'creative' to assemble that side in the first place as well didn’t they - McDonald and Hollah etc are Maoris?

They've probably had a hangi at some point...that's good enough isn't it?

Maoris as a distinct racial group are pretty hard to define. The last full-blooded one died out many years ago, and even before whitey came the different tribes were fairly "diverse". So when people refer to the "NZ Maori" rugby team, just think "AB 2nd fifteen".

	16-06-2005 04:40									#420
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I don't recognise ravagon's address in the little sidebar to his posts. Australia? Is there somewhere called Australia?

You might be surprised just how quickly 2 years can go by.
If you like I could start a countdown and keep track of just how many days you have remaining? Just to help you enjoy it all the more?

Lesee, you moved into your new house on the 30th, so thats a little over 2 weeks gone already. 2 weeks amounts to, what, roughly 2% of 2 years?