26-06-2005 14:29									#481
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quote: But Italy had just, literally, arrived from Argentina and would have been jetlagged and exhausted.

That's what's worrying me for France too. They may have some time to recover before the match, but they will be jetlagged too, and have a whole French rugby season in the legs whereas the Wallabies will be much fresher physically. That's usual wiht tours, of course.

A pity about O'Driscoll. If the tackle was illegal, the tacklers should have been red carded. You are not supposed to dump a player but accompany him to the ground.

	26-06-2005 15:16									#482
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O'Driscoll seems to have said (or at least implied) that it was a spear tackle which is foul play and, I would assume, a red card offence. The citing official seems to have decided otherwise. Based on Kalius' observation, it sounds like it should have been, at least, a penalty. Having not seen it I don't know what happened.

	27-06-2005 05:45									#483
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Great pity about BO'D.
I of course didn't see it either.
I wonder though whether they may've dropped him after realising that he didn't have the ball anymore? The Bok match referee has dismissed it without comment apparently.
I'm not sure what happened with the other Lions injury (one of the others is out too IIRC).

Grewcock out for a couple of months for the Mike Tyson impersonation.
Probably understandable I guess.
Ironic that Ali Williams, much maligned, turned out to be pretty much the star of the game ... apparently.

	27-06-2005 05:51									#484
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Zinzan: "Most of the New Zealand public have written the Lions off and are talking more about the margin of victory in the first Test rather than worrying about whether the men in black will win it. The New Zealand public and media are doing their usual thing of thinking their rugby side are unbeatable. But that has been disproven so many times before. A team needs to be brimming with confidence, in fact arrogance. But there is a fine line between that and over-confidence and that, to me, is the All Blacks' biggest weakness." And there you have it - the Lions best chance is that NZ run out in the same frame of mind they did in the RWC semi - thinking they had already won the final? Where is Ravagon when you need a good rise?

Damn.

Great pity I missed this last week. I would've come up with something to the effect of the Lions best chance not being terribly high then? Well, assuming that I could get over the sheer shock effect of your quoting Zinny without responding with the usual associated verbal barrage, let alone your apparent attempt to take his comments seriously.

Unfortunately it loses a little something with the benefit of hindsight though?

[Edit: Hmmm. Forget about blaming injuries, tactics or even Clives selection policy. Here's the real reason why the Lions lost. http://www.planetrugby.com/Tourname...ory_44462.shtml ]

	27-06-2005 08:44									#485
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BOD is the one being flipped (obviously)

Tana is between BOD and the camera
Mealamu is driving BOD up.

How could this not be cited? The ball, FYI, is 30 yards to the right. As seen by lack of a scrum-half, and the Lions winger pointing at the incident.

Sickening.

	27-06-2005 08:47									#486
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The law:

quote: Law 10.4 (e) [...]Playing a player without the ball is dangerous play. 10.4 (f) Playing an opponent without the ball. Except in a scrum, ruck or maul, a player must not hold, or push, or charge into, or obstruct an opponent not carrying the ball.

The ruck is over (ball has been cleared long ago), BOD is nowhere near the ball, and Keven/Tana are doing 3 of the things law 10.4f makes verboten.

	27-06-2005 09:26									#487
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From the looks of that clip all players concerned are still disentangling themselves. I'm not sure that Mealamu even realises that the ball isn't around anymore. Mealamu is going to ground along with O'Driscoll and Tana seems to be more interested in getting him out of the way and getting himself back to where the action is. Too carelessly, perhaps.

It looks unfortunate but I can't see that it was intentional, particulary with the linesman < 5m away...

	27-06-2005 09:34									#488
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The only other player there is the tackled player

	27-06-2005 09:36									#489
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It also appears Tana's left shoulder is helping aid Mealamu in the dumping of BOD.

	27-06-2005 13:17									#490
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Another sickening thing is that Tana dumps him, he knows he is upside down when he drops him, and then he runs off to the back line.

	27-06-2005 13:34									#491
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It doesn’t have to be intentional as such Ravagon – it only needs to be dangerous in the execution for citing to occur. It’s an important distinction – and the execution of that double tackle was lethal. Just look at the clip Ravagon – you simply cannot defend them. Where was the ball? It’s only a tackle if the player is a ball carrier! He is being speared into the ground with the ball nowhere near as kalius points out!!! You cannot excuse it by saying the hooker is too thick to know the ball has gone or that Tana is being 'Careless'!

There is a real danger of this staining the ABs badly I am afraid. The Lions are of course similarly stained for Grewcock going psycho (and after I defended him!). Danny must never don the white or red again.

If only Martin was there though – neither AB would have walked away scot free from the situation then I assure you. It called for a 99 call perhaps?

And Finbar is the one who rails on Zinny old bean – not me!

Anyway as for the rugby I have never seen such a poor performance from a Lions test side – and I’ve watched them all from the 93 series onwards (Only saw highlights of the 89 tour – enjoyable though!). Some of the decision making with what little ball they had beggared belief.

The far better side won – and only the weather prevented it being a total thumping. The kicking game plan sucked a*** big time – and the Irish hooker became Lardy mark 2. You cannot lose ten of your own line outs and expect to win a game!

The tour is over – bring the boys home and lets address the fundamental problems with our domestic structure so squads are arriving far fresher on these tours.

Oh England won the Churchill cup – beating Argentina comprehensively (as the Lions failed to do). Hope for the future then – but a torrid time right now.

I was looking for the positives from the Lions but it was hard – Ryan Jones looked good, Corry worked hard and Lewsey was solid in defence. Little more springs to mind – Backy did what he could but the ABs were winning the contact so he was living off scraps. The honour tunnel after the game was nicely constructed.

Corry has been scape goated – dropped to the mid week team. That’s vintage Clive – fixing the wrong problems. Thank god Robinson has been dropped though – he was useless. Thomas is now skipper – strange choice as he offered no leadership last Saturday.

I guess we should talk about the foul play again – I did not see Grewcock’s madness but I will not defend it in any way. O’Connell deserved his yellow for cynical play. I did feel Chris Jack should have been carded for his wrap and spear on O’Connell in the line out – it was dangerous. It wouldn’t have made any difference of course.

But the big issue of course is O’Driscoll. I only saw the aftermath live as four black shirts rose from around him and he never got up but on subsequent viewings I am satisfied that dangerous foul play occurred. The Bok citing official didn’t think it was foul play and that is hardly a surprise I guess – I would have been more surprised if he had made a correct decision. O’Driscoll is sure of what happened to him. Clive will certainly get into trouble for what he has said about the citing official – so what is new.

The thing is O’Driscoll is not a whiner – never has been – and he is convinced he was illegally dump tackled by Umaga and the hooker (note they are not necessarily claiming deliberate intentions but that the net result of the double tackle made was dangerous foul play). Between him and a Bok official I have to say I am inclined to automatically believe Brian on it. We haven’t heard the last of this I am sure – big fine for Clive without a doubt?

Ah what does it matter – it’s going to be 3-0 now as there was no glimmer of hope anywhere in the first test for the Lions. It would take a turn around of Aussie like proportions and I don’t think this squad has that character.

And you know what – I don’t think the ABs will then win the tri nations. They should of course – but I just don’t think they will. Every time they pump themselves up like this someone always lets their tyres down fairly quickly.

Last edited by Havak on 27-06-2005 at 14:39

	27-06-2005 15:19									#492
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I can't really see a lot of detail in the posted image. It's too grainy on my p*ssy little laptop. But from what I can see it seems well worthy of review. Clive really is a master of hypocrisy and the smokescreen. He insinuates all sorts of heinous thing about the tackle; doesn't ask within 12 hours of the end of the match for it to be referred as the tour rules - to which he is a signatory - require; overcomes his failure to refer the matter by criticising the 12-hour rule on the basis that it puts too much pressure on citing officials; and slates the citing official for not taking the matter of the tackle further. There's no doubting his tapdancing skills. Now let's see how good a coach he is. The pattern that emerged with his England coaching post-J**** is, methinks, repeating itself here. J**** made Clive's reputation. Now, in his absence, J**** might well sink that reputation. Oh, and to make his life more difficult, leaving J**** aside, I don't think this squad has much of the class of the mob that toured here.

Anyway, because I can't make out enough detail of the tackle, I can only say that I've never seen Tana Umaga (or Mr Mealamu, for that matter) indulge in deliberately foul play. I only say that because some hysterics - on a web board that shall remain nameless - are of the view that it was a deliberate assault on O'Driscoll to take him out of the game. As you say, Havak, there's a difference between intentional and dangerous, and dangerous qualifies for examination. The problem, of course, is that the result - the extent of the injury - colours the situation. What if O'Driscoll had got up and walked away? Would there be the same storm?

To other matters. If not the Taffy as skipper, who else? Are there any other national skippers in the squad? Corry, I suppose. If he's been named in the midweek team, does that mean he's out of the next Test? I'd've thought it time Clive actually gave his Test team time together in match conditions. They only seemed to meet as a unit on Saturday. The ridiculous size of the tour party - okay, injuries have to be covered - seems to have meant the A group rarely have seen each other in match conditions.

Barring miracles, I also expect the ABs to sweep the series. Your point about the Tri-Nations is an interesting - if cynical - one. Not without basis, anyway. They're undoubtedly a better team without Carlos - possibly a shame, because he was very entertaining - because they're better organised even if more conventional. We beat them last year - with Carlos - with lightning, swarming defence that choked their supply. And if you're going to kick against them, you have to be deadly accurate. If kicking long, kick it out - and well out, over the fence - or it will come charging back at you at three times the speed. I actually don't think they choked last season. Eddie, to his credit, out-thought them. It will be interesting to see what happens this time around.

	27-06-2005 16:14									#493
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Imho that tackle was definately a spear tackle - after he had lifted Brian, the way he followed through as O'Driscol was put into the ground is almost a perfect spear tackle.

That should be a banning offense.

Grewcock got his just rewards for his behaviour. As someone who saw his head-stamping on Dwayne Peel in the six-nations, he is a known quantity and most refs seem to know that too.

Still i think O'Driscole has every right to be pissed.

Still it doesn't help the lions much. It seems they have a nearly impossible mountain to climb to get anything positive out of the tour

	27-06-2005 18:16									#494
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They can aim for respectability – and try to put in two good showings.

quote: There's no doubting his tapdancing skills. Now let's see how good a coach he is.

Oh I think I’ve seen enough of this to make my mind up.

I hadn’t realised his complaint was made outside agreed time limits btw. Not that I agree either player should get off with it because a time limit had elapsed either.

quote: I don't think this squad has much of the class of the mob that toured here.

On paper it is actually better. But in reality as you say it is not showing that.

quote: As you say, Havak, there's a difference between intentional and dangerous, and dangerous qualifies for examination

The crucial thing for me is that the execution of the double tackle was reckless at best in how they picked him up between them. I know it is not easy in the heat of a game but it was a move more at home in Pro Wrestling. I don’t think for a moment that Umaga is a man who would deliberately indulge in foul play – I do think he messed up and has not covered himself in glory since by hiding from it and behaving badly at the time. Why for example did he not check BOD as he was stretchered off. It is protocol to check a player injured in a tackle you made as he leaves the field. It is protocol to check an opposing skipper in the same situation. Two strikes from Tana who did not do so. Why I wonder? He always seems such a nice bloke when interviewed.

And why are the All Blacks hiding him from the media? He is the skipper and should be the public face? Guilty conscience as the other board is suggesting?

Bulloch, Corry, Back, Dawson have all skippered their country. But Thomas is I suppose a logical choice – not being English for starters.

Corry is the sacrifical lamb. Playing tomorrow rules him out (and Backy) because Saturday would make three games in eight days – against a side fresh as a daisy who stuffed you last time out. Yes playing tomorrow rules anyone out who played last Saturday I think.

quote: It will be interesting to see what happens this time around.

But even with crafty old Eddie to one side the Boks also beat them – not something I expected given even a poor England side dispatched the Boks subsequently.

	27-06-2005 19:21									#495
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by Havak [/SIZE I hadn’t realised his complaint was made outside agreed time limits btw. Not that I agree either player should get off with it because a time limit had elapsed either.

The tackle was reviewed by the Bok judiciary chap - he who banned Grewcock - because it (the tackle) was referred to him by the game official, an Australian. The Australian game official obviously thought it was worth a look. The Bok judiciary chap, having watched it countless times from as many angles, decided it didn't warrant pursuing. Rightly or wrongly.

There wasn't any official Lions complaint in terms of citing. (As I said, it was the Australian match official who referred it) There was a lot of immediate post-match fury, but nothing happened beyond that. It has to be done within 12 hours of the match, and they didn't. That was the basis of Clive's, um, smokescreen about needing to re-examine the citing law. He was so worked up over the tackle that I can't believe he forgot. I suspect he - and/or the management team - didn't know the rules. That's why there's now talk of taking it further. To the IRB. They didn't actually get around to acting at the time. As you say, players shouldn't get away with things because of lapses of time. But they didn't. They were exonerated by the Bok judiciary chap called into action by the Australian match official.

quote: On paper it is actually better. But in reality as you say it is not showing that.

Better on paper? Truly? My memory of that mob that toured here is that it was driven by the nucleus of an England team then nearing its peak. This group has a nucleus of England players either past their peak, injury-burdened - why was Hill selected? - or not of great quality.

quote: The crucial thing for me is that the execution of the double tackle was reckless at best in how they picked him up between them. I know it is not easy in the heat of a game but it was a move more at home in Pro Wrestling.

From what I've read, I have to agree.

quote: I don’t think for a moment that Umaga is a man who would deliberately indulge in foul play – I do think he messed up and has not covered himself in glory since by hiding from it and behaving badly at the time. Why for example did he not check BOD as he was stretchered off. It is protocol to check a player injured in a tackle you made as he leaves the field. It is protocol to check an opposing skipper in the same situation. Two strikes from Tana who did not do so. Why I wonder? He always seems such a nice bloke when interviewed.

Yes, that's all a bit of a mystery to me. Tana Umaga is always very good at that sort of thing.

quote: And why are the All Blacks hiding him from the media? He is the skipper and should be the public face? Guilty conscience as the other board is suggesting?

Who knows who is pulling the strings? I'm sure Umaga is hating every minute of it all.

quote: Corry is the sacrifical lamb. Playing tomorrow rules him out (and Backy) because Saturday would make three games in eight days – against a side fresh as a daisy who stuffed you last time out. Yes playing tomorrow rules anyone out who played last Saturday I think.

Clive is stuffed, I'd've thought. He said he would pick on form and didn't. So he called it picking experience. What does he do now? Pick on form?

	27-06-2005 19:57									#496
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He might as well pick his nose Finbar. Or pick his reputation back up off the floor.

I'll cover the differences between Lions 01 and 05 on the morrow.

	28-06-2005 13:01									#497
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Well at half time I should be getting excited at a Lions performance where the forwards are in complete control and the Kiwi's are living off scraps.

And you know I would be getting excited if only I didn't know that Manawatu are an NPC Division 2 side.

Why on earth is this team on the schedule when Canterbury are not?

	28-06-2005 13:16									#498
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Blimey. 59-6. 3 Lions tries within about 6 minutes of the restart! Now what was somebody saying not so long ago about overconfidence?
Only applies to NZ teams of course.

[Edit: flippin' heck. Another one. Lions are scoring faster than I can type. Not that this is a tremendous achievement in itself ... ]

[Edit[2] : Now D'Arcy gets in on the action. The try list is going to look like the Lions line-up by the time it's over ... ]

Last edited by ravagon on 28-06-2005 at 13:23

	28-06-2005 13:23									#499
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It's a total mis match Ravagon - just like last Saturday!

Any backline is going to be rampant based on the excellent front foot ball they are getting all the time.

It's meaningless as the test side is not going to get the same quantity or quality of ball in their wildest dreams but it will at least hopefully put a rocket up the forwards and make them compete properly on Saturday - I hope.

Ollie Smith is having a great game apparently - outside bet for the 13 shirt Saturday perhaps?

*edit* This bit of the PR commetary made me smile:

"The locals decide to take it quickly and kick the ball back to the hungry Lions! Bizarre."

It's exactly what the Lions did last Saturday to the AB backline - and I used a word that was a little stronger than Bizarre!

	28-06-2005 13:30									#500
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Hmmm. Nearly at the 3/4 ton now. This is getting ridiculous.
Manawatu were actually a capable side a couple (maybe three) decades ago.

I guess this is where the Lions went wrong in the beginning. Forget matchups against the Pumas - they should've gone up against the RoK or Japan perhaps?
Put a ton on the board and see what that does for their confidence.

Wonder if Clive will be coming out of this one a little more pleased?
I can just see the phrase 'confidence-builder' emerging from his gob at the press conference afterwards as though it were a part of his master plan all along ...

[Edit: Smith? He's only got one. Williams seems to have a hat trick. ]

[Edit[2]: Hat trick? Well counting has never been my strong suit ... ]

Last edited by ravagon on 28-06-2005 at 13:36

	28-06-2005 13:46									#501
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It's okay - there are two Williams playing so you were correct with hat trick for Shane I believe.

*edit* Well contrary to the commentary I was seeing Shane actually got all five 'Williams' tries. That'll cost him at the end of tour booze up.

Smith has been involved in a lot of the tries - he has made a lot of the breaks and the passes involved in setting them up. Good young player - great potential.

The game is pointless of course - confidence builder perhaps a little bit - but Manawatu have really played a strange gameplan - they haven't changed it at all and are still running straight at the Lions and trying little chips over their heads too - almost every play is resulting in a turnover.

I can't fault their effort but they just put huge pressure on the Lions near the brits tryline then spun a wild pass that missed and went to the deck - it's scooped up by O'Gara and kicked deep, the home defence is woefully late getting back and the Lions score again.

It's like a text book case of how not to tactically approach a game!

Last edited by Havak on 28-06-2005 at 14:14

	28-06-2005 13:51									#502
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Well, piffle!
Ton comes up in extra time.
Still, all-in-all I'd have to give the moral victory to the locals.
Afterall the real test of the game is in how many penalties are kicked, and they had two of them - unanswered!

Lucky me. Game finishes just in time to knock off.

	28-06-2005 13:52									#503
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I love your summary - great parody of Clive there.

They also won on yellow card countback!

*edit* A Saints fan has said to me "so what does this game prove - other than that they can shoot fish in a barrel?"

Nice summary - what was this fixture doing on the schedule?

Final score:

Manawatu 6 Lions 109

Last edited by Havak on 28-06-2005 at 13:58

	28-06-2005 14:13									#504
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All well and good, an utterly meaningless fixture.

Now, and in no way related to that fixture, convince me, as you promised to do, that this Lions squad is better on paper than the mob that came here?

	28-06-2005 14:25									#505
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No Dai Young, Rob Henderson, Colin Charvis, Darren Morris, Austion Healey or Dan Luger.

How about that for starters?

But also no Jason Leonard or Jonno.

I actually agree with you that the core of forwards last time were mainly English and at their peak.

But the Celts were represented there and none of them were in form then resulting in Tom Smith (useless) and Darren Morris (at least two stone over weight) propping for political reasons and Charvis taking the field for the same concerns. Scott Quinell was given the number 8 shirt but wasn't fit at all. The only decent scrummie on tour was Dawson (eek!)

I honestly think therefore that with the huge exception of jonno he could pick a better pack than Sydney from what he has down there - but then I thought he had last weekend!

But the backline down there this time is far far better. There was little creativity in the 2001 outside of Austin. Robinson was an unknown then and enjoyed some success. But Dafyyd james was played on one of the wings - who you say? Exactly! Still fairly young he no longer figures for Wales - and for good reason. Matt Perry was fullback - solid defensively and a good enough lad but Lewsey, Thomas and Murphy offer far more going forward.

This time we have Williams, Murphy, Lewsey, Thomas and yes even Robinson to play in the back line - it is a bigger and better pool to pick from.

Am I convincing you at all - it's stream of consciousness stuff rather than a coherent run through the sides.

	28-06-2005 15:04									#506
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Finbar and others--should be able to catch live broadcast at[URL=http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz] of remaining Lions tests. -Kiwiman

	28-06-2005 19:25									#507
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Thanks for that, kiwiman. I'll check it out. If it's a goer, I'll be thrilled.

Sorry, Havak, you haven't entirely convinced me. Part of the problem, of course, is the magnitude of J****. He was worth a couple of players, probably more. Sure, the Lugers of the world aren't missed, but they had Neil Back probably in his prime, and Robinson, then a new boy, was a dazzler. He's since been worked out (as well as, perhaps, lost confidence). BTW, who were the locks on that tour apart from J****?

Anyway, perhaps my view is coloured by the fact that, this year, I saw just about all of the 6-Nations - we didn't have access to NH matches prior to the Lions tour here - and I didn't see anything in the 6-Nations that impressed me. (With the proviso that the Taffys remain an unknown quantity. They beat what they had to beat but it wasn't very crash hot) So my 6-Nations impression has skewed my view of this mob. Along with Clive's obviously biased selections.

Speaking of Clive, he has now taken to using video replays of the tackle to pillory Tana Umaga. Shades of his efforts to influence the refs over Australia's so-called decoy runners a couple of years ago. It truly is despicable. The matter was dealt with by the judiciary. (Not forgetting that the Lions' management failed to take the appropriate action in time!) If Clive and the Lions' management have a problem with the the judicial outcome, let them take the matter through channels with the IRB. What's going on now amounts to public character assassination. Note carefully that Umaga is their target. There has been next to no mention of the hooker. It's no accident of timing that the despicable Alastair Campbell has also entererd the verbal fray. His grubby fingerprints are all over this. Patently obviously, Clive is (a) trying to shift the focus from his team's crap performance; and (b) motivate his players. Well, I'm no lawyer, but I suspect they're sailing pretty close to defamation. If you are acting on Campbell's advice, Clive, and I have no doubt you are, be careful. Lie down with dogs, you will catch fleas.

	29-06-2005 13:22									#508
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Well I’m still getting over the shock of Ravagon using the word piffle – I always suspected he was really English.

It shows how easy it is to get thing wrong from non visual commentary – Manawatu were not chipping at all. What they were doing was losing the ball six feet in the air and ten feet forward in every contact.

Hard to see what games like this do for either side to be honest…

quote: BTW, who were the locks on that tour apart from J****?

From memory Danny Grewcock played the tests – Irish duo Malcolm O’Kelly (injured early this time) and Jeremy Davidson (successful 97 Lion, now retired I believe) were there and the set was completed by Scot Murray (you can guess his nationality from his name).

quote: So my 6-Nations impression has skewed my view of this mob. Along with Clive's obviously biased selections.

Fair enough point with the exception of the selections where he picked a team for a gameplan and they failed to deliver. The 6 nations was poor this year, the poorest in a decade for me personally. This tour is badly timed in terms of the health of UK rugby but even accepting that we should be more competitive with the ABs than we have been.

Simply put our season needs sorting – less rugby played and the 6N in a block at the end of season totally separate to all club games. Trouble is the French have blocked all suggestions to this effect consistently because their championship insanely runs into June!

There’s no hiding place Saturday – as many welsh as English in the line up and completed by Irish lads. The Celts get their chance – and lose bragging rights for ever if they lose.

Corry made the bench by the way – and so he should. Back dropped totally – unfair on a guy whose tight five did not assist him. Moody is certainly as good as player as McCaw – only he is a blindside not openside so Richie has another field day ahead if he survives the contact with Lewis (and he may not – Lewis is almost insanely brave on the pitch – fairly so before you ask. He puts his body on the line every time and is as solid as a bull).

Jonny at fly half is controversial still of course.

Most controversial for me is the ommission of Cusiter for that **** Dawson on the bench.

quote: It truly is despicable.

Well I think that’s a bit strong myself although I fully believe you are right it is to ‘deflect and motivate’.

Am I right in reading through the lines that your fundamental argument is that because the time limit was exceeded, and simply because Clive is asking for it, that no case should be answered? I disagree. I’m not out for Tana’s blood – I think he is actually a nice guy with great humility for such a huge talent. He did get it wrong though and part of being a man is facing mistakes - some kind of apology would be nice. Silence, and the entire AB camp saying ‘innocent’ every five seconds is just not acceptable. Typically NZ – who never admit anything or discipline their own people properly it would seem – but not acceptable. Innocent? How so? He made the ‘tackle’ didn’t he? The Subject of the tackle was badly injured as a direct consequent of an unsafe tackle. Innocent how exactly? You want to discuss spin – look at the AB camp!

It’s also fine for that small hooker to stick his hands in someone’s mouth and pull them away from play by their cheek flesh (only for the opponent to then be banned for biting that hand) of course – he was English not kiwi after all. Of course Danny should have been banned for biting that hand – it’s disgusting psychotic behaviour. Obviously he should have let his cheek be ripped open and ‘taken the bullet’. And Tana should probably have been disciplined for that lethal tackle – reckless and highly dangerous. Forget Clive and his spin w****** as this is about the tackle not the universal SH dislike of Clive.

But I forget – the ABs are beyond reproach. Whiter than white so to speak. Shame that having Ali Williams in the side totally blows that myth eh?

*edit* I want to clarify my position on violent play in case Ravagon dislikes my flippancy above about the finger kisser.

Players who put their fingers in other players eyes should never play again.

Players who stand on peoples head should never play again.

Players who bite poeple on the pitch should never play again (and should probably be sectioned).

Players who stick their fingers 'inadvertently' in other players mouths should be banned for several months and then given IQ tests to discover just how dumb they are and find out therefore if it is safe to let them on a pitch again!