03-03-2005 05:10									#61
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quote: The assumption that farm animals cannot suffer from conditions that would be considered intolerable for humans is partly based on the idea that they are less intelligent than people and have no “sense of self”. Increasingly, however, research reveals this to be untrue. Keith Kendrick, professor of neurobiology at the Babraham Institute in Cambridge, has found that even sheep are far more complex than realised and can remember 50 ovine faces — even in profile. They can recognise another sheep after a year apart.

What does this have to do with a sense of self? In fact, I find it funny that they use this as their argument just after saying:

quote: “People have assumed that intelligence is linked to the ability to suffer and that because animals have smaller brains they suffer less than humans. That is a pathetic piece of logic,” he said.

	03-03-2005 05:26									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Thucydides I really don't believe anyone seriously thinks that animals don't feel pain. I notice that the only people who espouse that argument are vegetarians that put it up as a strawman argument to take down.

You haven't paid enough attention to the OT lately (wait until Kuci shows up)

Seriously though, that point of view was developed by Descartes quite a few centuries ago, and it was mainstream among educated circles for a very long time. The Church, with its "animals have no souls" argument, also kept the uneducated people believing it.

Even today, if you speak about the issue, you'll fairly often meet people who simply cannot believe that cows are deathly afraid of the meat grinder (to the point that some die of heart attack before being slaughtered).

	03-03-2005 05:29									#63
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They feel pain. They are not self-aware. If they were, then I'd consider them morally equivalent to people.

Oh, and I can admit that they are afraid - but I believe the emotion is just like numbers in the register of a computer.

The only reason I believe other people are self-aware - something for which I have virtually no real evidence - is that their brains are practically similar to mine, and I am self-aware, and I believe self-awareness is an emergent property of matter - ergo, other people are probably self-aware since the mechanism that makes me so exists in very similar form in other people.

	03-03-2005 05:33									#64
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Gay bovine nymphos...

Great...like I needed another reason for Jaguar to assert that I'm homosexual

	03-03-2005 05:34									#65
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btw I'm a vegan. Because I live in Las Vegas.

	03-03-2005 06:12									#66
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Gay bovine nymphos... Great...like I needed another reason for Jaguar to assert that I'm homosexual

But at least you have the coolness factor of being a nymphomaniac

	03-03-2005 09:07									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The only reason I believe other people are self-aware - something for which I have virtually no real evidence - is that their brains are practically similar to mine, and I am self-aware, and I believe self-awareness is an emergent property of matter - ergo, other people are probably self-aware since the mechanism that makes me so exists in very similar form in other people.

On what grounds do you justify the belief that only human beings can be self-aware? Is there any evidence that there is some sort of cutoff for self awareness?

This is a flimsy bit of logic, as it makes a huge, unjustified assumption.

	03-03-2005 09:12									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Maybe the animal can feel pain, and I think it wrong to make an animal feel more pain than necessary, just on principle, but the beast is not human. It was bred and raised for the explicit purpose of being killed and eaten someday. So far as we can discern it, the purpose of these beasts' lives is to end, as Agent Smith put it in a really crappy movie. Yay for meat.

Some people used to be bred and raised for the purpose of being exploited for labor. We call them slaves. We all find that institution repugnant, don't we?

In a future society (since you brought up the Matrix), if human beings were used for such a purpose, we'd all find it an atrocity. So what's different about animals? Sure, they aren't "human," but does that in and of itself make a justification, or prove they somehow don't have consciousness/emotions/self-awareness/whatever?

	03-03-2005 09:19									#69
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quote: The assumption that farm animals cannot suffer from conditions that would be considered intolerable for humans is partly based on the idea that they are less intelligent than people and have no “sense of self”. Increasingly, however, research reveals this to be untrue. Keith Kendrick, professor of neurobiology at the Babraham Institute in Cambridge, has found that even sheep are far more complex than realised and can remember 50 ovine faces — even in profile.

Research still hasn't shown sheep are as intelligent as humans and have a sense of self.

BTW where the article came from?

	03-03-2005 09:53									#70
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I would become a cannibal and kill humans if I was starving, so such news doesn't really affect me.

	03-03-2005 13:54									#71
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* Ben Kenobi lurks.

Let's see. Side A, says that you don't need a big brain to feel pain, or to be considered a person.

Side B tries to show why humans are special animals unlike all the other animals.

I'm torn!

	03-03-2005 15:14									#72
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BK: I don't think that "feeling pain" is adequate criteria for being considered a person, since it would presumably apply to any vertebrate with a nervous system. Remember my lifeform - person(a) - being distinction? I think that would be applicable here.

	03-03-2005 15:31									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident btw I'm a vegan. Because I live in Las Vegas.

Is that a requirement to live there?

	03-03-2005 16:03									#74
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quote: Kendrick has also described how sheep can form strong affections for particular humans, becoming depressed by long separations and greeting them enthusiastically even after three years.

"Oh! There's my friend! And He's carrying a knife to set me free from this rope and we'll spend the rest of our lifes happily together! Hurra! Huzzah!
(...)
Argh
"

What's interesting that it seems a sheep can recognise human face for 3x longer period than ovine one.

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The problem is that the cows are often sacrificed in an assembly line manner. The cow behind the one getting slugged in the head by the pneumatic hammer can probably see what's happening. The poor thing probably nearly has a heart attack, yet is too overcome by grief over the passing of her dear friend to run for life. Clearly a more humane process is required.

In fact, in EU, or at least in Poland, at least when it comes to pig, the next one should not see what's happening to the previous one. But it's not one of the respected laws.

Great thread!

	03-03-2005 16:48									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson "Oh! There's my friend! And He's carrying a knife to set me free from this rope and we'll spend the rest of our lifes happily together! Hurra! Huzzah!

Well, in a way, they will

	03-03-2005 17:48									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov On what grounds do you justify the belief that only human beings can be self-aware? Is there any evidence that there is some sort of cutoff for self awareness? This is a flimsy bit of logic, as it makes a huge, unjustified assumption.

Did you even read my post? I wouldn't think that even they are self-aware, except for what I mentioned. I don't assume "only humans can be self-aware" - but my default assumption is that something is NOT self-aware, because there's virtually no way to establish that something is self-aware except through the logic that I used to explain why I believe humans are.

	03-03-2005 18:01									#77
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Read the thread that spiffor linked too Boris (actually, don't just skip to the last couple pages - it's all the ****ing same), Kuci's argument all comes down to there being no free will, and that humans (including himself, apparently) incorrectly think that they have a free will as a result of their inheritely mentally retarded nature. Consciousness is just a state of being stupid.

Last edited by General Ludd on 03-03-2005 at 18:19

	03-03-2005 18:34									#78
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Here's a great opportunity for capitalists - start a "cruelty-free" slaughterhouse! All animals given a good life, killed individually and as painlessly as possible, then you charge 5x what supermarkets charge and sell via internet/FedEx to those who need a burger but can't abide the thought of Bessie's pain and suffering.

	03-03-2005 19:02									#79
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quote: Originally posted by ajbera those who need a burger but can't abide the thought of Bessie's pain and suffering.

That would be what veggie burgers are for...

	03-03-2005 19:13									#80
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd That would be what veggie burgers are for...

I wonder if any veggie burger tastes even remotely like beef.

If it can't resemble the taste of beef at least as much as a mcdonalds burger patty, I don't know that I could ever even try such a substitute.

(yes I'm quite aware that a mcdonalds beef patty is setting the standard incredibly low )

	03-03-2005 19:21									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo I wonder if any veggie burger tastes even remotely like beef. If it can't resemble the taste of beef at least as much as a mcdonalds burger patty, I don't know that I could ever even try such a substitute. (yes I'm quite aware that a mcdonalds beef patty is setting the standard incredibly low )

I believe the pointabout good vegetarian cuisine (and good vegan for that matter) is not that it replicates the taste or texture of meat (or fish or fowl) but that it is good in itself.


A notable feature of French cuisine, especially haute cuisine, is that a great deal of emphasis is placed on the quality of the meat or fish, or fowl, and accompanying reductions, veloute sauces, jus, et cetera, but that vegetables are very much overlooked, except if they are a first course, such as white asparagus.


Chinese Buddhist cuisine often uses gluten based substitutes for beef, or duck, or pork, the best of which resemble the meats they are meant to be to the extent that mock duck even has the 'goosepimples' associated with having been plucked. You can even have chicken's blood casserole which has been no nearer a chicken than McDonald's slurry McNuggets, and is much healthier.


I very rarely crave meat, but will eat it occasionally.

	03-03-2005 19:55									#82
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I believe the pointabout good vegetarian cuisine (and good vegan for that matter) is not that it replicates the taste or texture of meat (or fish or fowl) but that it is good in itself.

Exactly.... the veggie burgers that try to taste like meat are always the worst (probably because they do taste similiar to meat) and the ones that just try to taste good are... well, good.

	03-03-2005 20:04									#83
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Exactly.... the veggie burgers that try to taste like meat are always the worst (probably because they do taste similiar to meat) and the ones that just try to taste good are... well, good.

I suspect you are a vegitarian because you don't like meat and the moral issues are just a convenient opportunity to indulge in a little self righteous superiority

	03-03-2005 20:16									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Did you even read my post? I wouldn't think that even they are self-aware, except for what I mentioned. I don't assume "only humans can be self-aware" - but my default assumption is that something is NOT self-aware, because there's virtually no way to establish that something is self-aware except through the logic that I used to explain why I believe humans are.

Yes, I read your post, you seemed to have missed the point of mine--that your default assumption is groundless. By your logic, it would be just as reasonable to assume other humans aren't self-aware, that they're just automatons reacting to stimuli. Because the only "proof" we have of self-awareness is our own consciousness.

To segregate humans out as the only assumed self-aware beings is silly, since we have *no* way of knowing whether anything else is self-aware or not.

But, the fact that we do have self-awareness is, in and of itself, reason to believe that other species possess it, to carying degrees. As Ernst Mayr said, human consciousness is an evolutionary product that arose from animal consciousness. I find it puzzling you are an atheist who believes in evolution, yet seem to think there is some magical "on" switch for consciousness that only humans have and other species don't. That doesn't make much biological sense. What makes more sense is that there are varying degrees of self-awareness that species possess. Ours may be the most developed, but that doesn't mean there's some magical, mystical barrier between us and [other] animals.

	03-03-2005 20:21									#85
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Exactly.... the veggie burgers that try to taste like meat are always the worst (probably because they do taste similiar to meat) and the ones that just try to taste good are... well, good.

To some extent, I agree--but I've had wonderful examples of "imitative" vegetarian food. A new vegan restaurant just opened near my office, and I've been to lunch there a few times. They have a vegetarian meatball sub and a vegetarian reuben that are both really delicious.

Also, Morningstar Farms products are usually quite tasty, especially their vegetarian buffalo wings and chicken patties.

	03-03-2005 20:23									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo I suspect you are a vegitarian because you don't like meat

Stunning deduction, Mr. Holmes!

	03-03-2005 20:54									#87
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Doesn't change my eating habits either. But over time I am coming around to the idea that eating animals is immoral and barbaric. Problem is, they are so damn tasty.

If vegitarianism became easier, more widely accepted and practiced, and if vegitarian food didn't taste so damn bad I could go for it.

	03-03-2005 20:55									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident btw I'm a vegan. Because I live in Las Vegas.

	03-03-2005 21:59									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Some people used to be bred and raised for the purpose of being exploited for labor. We call them slaves. We all find that institution repugnant, don't we? In a future society (since you brought up the Matrix), if human beings were used for such a purpose, we'd all find it an atrocity. So what's different about animals? Sure, they aren't "human," but does that in and of itself make a justification, or prove they somehow don't have consciousness/emotions/self-awareness/whatever?

Meh. If they do have a consciousness, it's probably rather different from mine. And such contradictions taught me long ago to value my species for its kinship to me, not for any projected ideas of theoretical cognition. A tree probably "feels" every stroke of the lumberjack's axe. Something happens to tell it, biochemically, that it is being damaged. It's a more agonizing way to die than anything used on human criminals in the civilized world. We still do it though, because it's just a tree.

Trying to project ideas of "how it feels" will inevitably give you the heebie-jeebies if you think about it long and hard enough, it's just easier for some animals which are more readily anthropomorphized. That kind of vegetarianism strikes me as off-balance and overly sentimental, comparable to deciding which endangered species to save based on which one is most easily trained to do cute tricks. I reject all platforms of rights based on ability.

Imagine all the millions of bacteria you kill when you microwave a burrito. If you heat a microbe, does it not shrivel? If you ***** it, does it not bleed cytoplasm? If you wrong it, does it not mutate to a resistant form and revenge? Suppose the burrito contains a rare and unique form of bacterium--you might be committing genocide!

	03-03-2005 22:23									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Elok I reject all platforms of rights based on ability.

How would this apply, I wonder to youth rights?

If ability is a non-issue, then upon what basis are rights denied to youth? Shouldn't then, their common humanity warrant them equality before the law?