05-03-2005 02:13									#61
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for most illnesses. however, for things like breast cancer this is not the case. women with breast cancer now have survival rates many times higher than women with breast cancer in the 70s. there are plenty of other examples like this and DanS's

	05-03-2005 02:22									#62
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It doesn't matter if they have higher survival rates. That has nothing to do with real wages. Improvements in technology may help people survive, but they do not help them pay their bills or save money.

	05-03-2005 02:28									#63
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so how do you measure the amount of healthcare you receive per healthcare dollar you spend? Do you mean to tell me a higher survival rate has no value?

	05-03-2005 05:18									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Real wages should pick up again if the economy expands, but the long run trend in real wages isn't keeping up with productivity improvements. That's for sure. I would hate to think what would happen to wages if we return to the productivity growth of the 70s and 80s.

Most of the new jobs are McJobs -- low wages, no benefits, no consumer power.

Also, unemployment numbers don't reflect the prison population (because they're not out on the streets looking for work). However, the jail population has the effect of unemployed workers -- adding nothing to the economy, but required food, clothes & housing, etc. Really, you have to double the unemployment rate to factor in these anchors on the economy.

	05-03-2005 05:40									#65
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Again, if most of the jobs were worse paying than before, the average hourly wage would have decreased. It did not. Therefore, the original premise is false. Teh Math uber Politics!

	05-03-2005 06:48									#66
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quote: In my opinion, we should just count all the people who are of working age and subtract all the people who have jobs to get the number of unemployed.

The biggest problem with this are the stay-at-home moms, who choose to be unemployed. That will throw off your numbers.

As someone who works in a 'mcjob' I discount that notion of a lack of purchasing power. I've been able to buy more now that I am working, than before when I wes not. If you mean relative purchasing power, it's not uniform with respect to income. Sure, more money will be good, but only up to a certain point will this result in an increase in consumption. After that point, most of the money will get stashed away.

	05-03-2005 19:02									#67
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quote: Originally posted by pchang so how do you measure the amount of healthcare you receive per healthcare dollar you spend? Do you mean to tell me a higher survival rate has no value?

Saving lives has great value. I would say that you probably can't even measure it. I'm saying that real wages is something else. Real wages measures how much workers are doing financially - can they pay their bills and save money. You can also compare it to producivity improvements. In the long run real wages should increase at the same rate as productivity. That certainly hasn't been the case since the 60s. That tells us something about the economy.

	07-03-2005 04:33									#68
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quote: Originally posted by pchang . . . non-wage compensation can be extremely misleading. The biggest non-wage compensation items are retirement plans and health care. The switch from defined benefit plans to defined contribution plans makes comparisons between retirement plans very difficult. . .

Thus, my diatribe against McJobs. The employer bails on paying medical and retirement benefits, effectively "exporting" these expenses onto the general public.

Instead of the employer paying retirement benefits, we make welfare payments. Instead of the employer paying medical benefits, we pay for emergency room treatment through our tax dollars and with higher insurance premiums (1 out of every 3 dollars in premiums goes to pay for the treatment of non-insured emergency room patients).

Thus, DanS's chart may show increasing after-inflation salaries starting with the Clinton administration, but this rising line should be downwardly adjusted because of the ever-increasing phenomenon of the McJob.

BTW: Ben Kenobi is right. A McJob is better than no job. --But a job with a good salary, with health benefits and with retirement benefits is even better.

	07-03-2005 04:41									#69
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DanS, Minister of Propaganda

	07-03-2005 04:47									#70
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Leftists... from the Ministry of making good news bad because it doesn't fit their agenda.

Somehow, job growth is bad for liberals.. wait that's less people on welfare.. yes it is very bad for liberals.

	07-03-2005 04:58									#71
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Hey, the lefties are now attacking me for the good news rather than the president.

I'm moving up in the world!

(Btw, I wonder who stole Ted Striker's login. )

	07-03-2005 05:23									#72
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False Good News != Good News


thanks

	07-03-2005 05:34									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DanS And no wonder that Carter got his pink slip after one term.

I seriously have to wonder if your brain is functioning. If you look at your own chart then average hourly wages were slightly less at the end of Carters term then at the beginning. They were massively less at the end of Reafons time then at the beginning. It wasn't until around 1997 that workers recovered from Reagan's anti-worker laws.

	07-03-2005 05:37									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker False Good News != Good News thanks

Unfortuantely for you, this isn't false good news. This is good good news. To you any real good news is very bad because it goes against your beliefs. You are pro-unemployment.

	07-03-2005 05:40									#75
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Unemployment rate went up genius.

thanks

	07-03-2005 05:41									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Unemployment rate went up genius. thanks

Hey smart one.... that's because more people went looking for jobs. People are more confident. It is natural. And besides unemployment is very low right now. If you were in power, it would be like 11 or 12% like in France.

	07-03-2005 05:42									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Thus, my diatribe against McJobs. The employer bails on paying medical and retirement benefits, effectively "exporting" these expenses onto the general public. Instead of the employer paying retirement benefits, we make welfare payments. Instead of the employer paying medical benefits, we pay for emergency room treatment through our tax dollars and with higher insurance premiums (1 out of every 3 dollars in premiums goes to pay for the treatment of non-insured emergency room patients). Thus, DanS's chart may show increasing after-inflation salaries starting with the Clinton administration, but this rising line should be downwardly adjusted because of the ever-increasing phenomenon of the McJob. BTW: Ben Kenobi is right. A McJob is better than no job. --But a job with a good salary, with health benefits and with retirement benefits is even better.

McJobs

In N' Out Burger

	07-03-2005 05:42									#78
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And where do these people magically materialise from Fez?

	07-03-2005 05:43									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Hey smart one.... that's because more people went looking for jobs. People are more confident. It is natural. And besides unemployment is very low right now. If you were in power, it would be like 11 or 12% like in France.

Nice copout based on nothing but speculation.

And who cares how many people are LOOKING for jobs?

The key indicator is how many people HAVE them.

DUH

thanks

	07-03-2005 05:44									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy And where do these people magically materialise from Fez?

DanS said so.

	07-03-2005 05:47									#81
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DanS, the ultimate vagina

	07-03-2005 05:49									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Sorry, I get touchy on the subject because I am sick of people blaming Carter for things that were beyond his control.

Without a doubt Carter was the last truly moral man we had in the White House. There was no Iran-Contra, there was no Read my lips, there was no Monica Lewinscewi, there were not lies about WMD. Carter went down because unlike Reagan he would not break the law and sell arms to the Iranian Mullahs. Carter was a life long Baptist minister yet he left the baptist church when they said women were genetically inferior to men and when the Southern Baptists claimed blacks were inferior to whites. That takes moral courage and the man will always be a hero in my book.

	07-03-2005 06:49									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy And where do these people magically materialise from Fez?

They were ones who weren't looking for jobs before, but now are... thus applying for unemployment benefits in the process in their search for jobs.

	07-03-2005 06:50									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Nice copout based on nothing but speculation. And who cares how many people are LOOKING for jobs? The key indicator is how many people HAVE them. DUH thanks

The only copouts are coming from your mouth. I'm still wondering who hijacked your account.

	07-03-2005 07:03									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I seriously have to wonder if your brain is functioning. If you look at your own chart then average hourly wages were slightly less at the end of Carters term then at the beginning. They were massively less at the end of Reafons time then at the beginning. It wasn't until around 1997 that workers recovered from Reagan's anti-worker laws.

Look at the chart again, keeping in mind that the entire year 1980 was under Carter.

If you insist on holding that opinion afterwards, then there's nothing that the doctor can do to help you.

	07-03-2005 07:07									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The key indicator is how many people HAVE them.

And that number is 248,000 more had jobs last month than the month before.

	07-03-2005 07:08									#87
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You people are hopeless. Simple math PROVES unemployment went down in Feb. and that all the jobs created were not McJobs. What is the matter with you people? Are you all innumerate?

	07-03-2005 07:17									#88
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They were slightly less at the end of Carter's time but massvely less at the end of Reagan's time. Carter was a victim of the 70's stagflation. Yet he was still more mral the any President since. Reagtan was a crook compared to Carter.

	07-03-2005 07:20									#89
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quote: Yet he was still more mral the any President since. Reagtan was a crook compared to Carter.

Which, of course, has nothing to do with this thread.

	07-03-2005 07:20									#90
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quote: Originally posted by pchang You people are hopeless. Simple math PROVES unemployment went down in Feb. and that all the jobs created were not McJobs. What is the matter with you people? Are you all innumerate?

So you consider any job which pays better then $8 without benifits to be a good job? Most of us would say those are **** jobs.