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DanS is offline DanS
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  Old Post 04-03-2005 21:23 Visit DanS's homepage!
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Let the good times roll -- 248,000 new jobs Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Good news. 262,000 new non-farm jobs were announced for February and downward revision of 14,000 was made for January's job numbers, leaving a net +248,000 new jobs announced. The economy went completely into expansion in January (net jobs from the last peak of February '01 to January '05 finally were positive).

The underlying components of this job growth are healthy. Over 90% of the new jobs are in the private sector. Another couple of months of this and the private sector can be said to finally be completely in expansion mode.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/5992efa4-8...000e2511c8.html

quote:
US February job growth tops expectations
By Christopher Swann in Washington and wires
Published: March 4 2005 13:46 | Last updated: March 4 2005 13:46

US jobs imageThe US created 262,000 jobs in February, the biggest gain in four months, surpassing expectations and reinforcing confidence in the sustainability of economic growth.
ADVERTISEMENT

Economists have become accustomed to seeing the payroll figures fall short of their expectations. On Friday, however, they were confronted with the novel situation of having underestimated job growth. The average forecast was for an increase of 218,000.

There was a slight downward revision to job growth in January which was lowered by 14,000 to 132,000. But economists said the figures reduced the threat of an abrupt slowdown in consumer spending.

Nevertheless, a surge of new workers onto the market pushed the unemployment rate up from 5.2 per cent to 5.4 per cent.

There are also no signs yet that the improving market is helping boost the bargaining position of workers. Average hourly earnings was unchanged over the month.

The number of people unemployed for more than 27 weeks - the amount of time Americans are entitled to Federal jobless benefits - was unchanged at 1.6m - a fifth of the total unemployed.

With the economy no longer being boosted by mortgage refinancing and tax rebates, employment and wage growth will be crucial in determining the pace of consumer spending growth.

A survey released on Friday showed consumer sentiment fell more than expected in the month, Reuters reported. The University of Michigan’s consumer confidence index for February fell to 94.1 from January’s 95.5, according to Reuters’ sources who saw the subscription-only report.

Analysts had expected expected a figure of 95.45.

Most economists assume job growth needs to achieve an average of about 150,000 a month in order to absorb new workers entering the market.

Shares rose in early trade on Friday. The Dow Jones Industrial Average was up 74 points at 10,906 and the Nasdaq rose 10 points to 2,068.

JimmyCracksCorn is offline JimmyCracksCorn
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Nice try, Dan. But too bad unemployment rose.

quote:
Dollar Declines Against Euro; U.S. Unemployment Rate Increases

March 4 (Bloomberg) -- The dollar fell for the first time in a week after a government report showed the U.S. unemployment rate rose last month and fewer people were hired in January than initially reported.

Speculation the economy would add as many as 300,000 jobs overshadowed the Labor Department report that employers hired 262,000 new workers, the most since October and above the median forecast of economists polled by Bloomberg.

``The numbers were not strong enough to support dollar bulls' wildest desires,'' said Jason Bonanca, a currency strategist at Credit Suisse First Boston in New York. ``We are still improving and 262,000 is a good number, but details in the report were not so supportive.''

Against the euro, the dollar weakened to $1.3219 at 10:04 a.m. in New York from $1.3110 late yesterday, according to electronic currency-dealing system EBS. Versus the yen, the dollar declined to 104.63, from 105.29. The dollar is still up 0.3 percent this week against the euro and is down 0.6 percent versus the yen, the third straight week of losses.

Economists predicted U.S. employers created 225,000 jobs last month, according to the median of 70 forecasts in a Bloomberg survey. The Labor Department said today the U.S. jobless rate rose to 5.4 percent in February, from 5.2 percent in January, when employers hired 132,000 workers. The initial estimate for job growth in January was 146,000.


http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/new...pzUw&refer=home

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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DanS is offline DanS
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Unemployment rose because people are coming back into the job market. This is good news, not bad news.

duke o' york is offline duke o' york

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So in fact unemployment stayed the same, but people have been shuffled between the various categories they have these days to make the unemployment figures look better.

JimmyCracksCorn is offline JimmyCracksCorn
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Unemployment rose because people are coming back into the job market. This is good news, not bad news.


So higher unemployment is good news?

You should work for the President.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
You should work for the President.


Doesn't he?

DanS is offline DanS
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quote:
So higher unemployment is good news?


In this case, yes. Last month, the unemployment rate went down, but you didn't hear me say that it was good news, because it was due mainly to people leaving the work force.

Basically, I don't follow the unemployment rate.

JimmyCracksCorn is offline JimmyCracksCorn
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS


In this case, yes.


I'll tell you, it doesn't seem like anyone else is reacting to favorably to this. And honestly, I'd love for the US economy to improve dramtically overnight. I have quite a bit in US dollar savings and the better the economy does the more my money is worth, but I just don't see it.

Here's some news from the currency markets. They don't seem to think this is very good news:

quote:
Canadian Forex Midday: C$ Strengthens



Winnipeg, MB, Mar 04, 2005 (Resource News International via COMTEX) -- The Canadian dollar was stronger at midday Friday, as US jobs data failed to live up to large pre-report expectations. The broad based weakness in the US dollar helped send the Canadian currency higher, said analysts.

The Canadian dollar was quoted at 81.27 US cents (C$1.2304) at 1149 CT (1749 GMT), which compares with 81.10 US cents (C$1.2330) early in the session, and Thursday's North American closing level of 80.40 US cents (C$1.2438).

The US economy created 262,000 jobs in February, which was above average estimates calling for a non-farm jobs increase of 220,000. However, the market had started to anticipate larger than consensus gains in recent days, with some calling for a figure above 300,000. With the numbers coming in below the high expectations, the US dollar weakened in the international markets.

Meanwhile, the US unemployment rate rose to 5.4%, from 5.2% in January. Economists had expected the rate to hold steady.

A sharp increase in Canada's Ivey Purchasing Managers' index also provided support to the Canadian dollar. The index was pegged at 63.4 for February, which compares to 50.0 in January. A number above 50.0 indicates an expansion of purchasing activity.

Canadian employment and trade data will be released next week, Friday.

The Toronto Stock Exchange (TSX) was higher at midday Friday, up 76.60 points at 1149 CT (1749 GMT).


http://news.tradingcharts.com/futures/0/3/64300330.html

pchang is offline pchang
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Official unemployment numbers are fuzzy figures because they only count those actively seeking work. In this case, unemployment rose because unemployed people who had previously given up on finding work became encouraged and began to actively seek work again. A more real tabulation of the unemployed that counts all unemployed people (without regard to whether or not they are actively seeking work) would have showed a decrease.

JimmyCracksCorn is offline JimmyCracksCorn
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Doesn't he?


quote:
Originally posted by DanS


Basically, I don't follow the unemployment rate.


I'm beginning to agree with you, Che.

Odin is offline Odin
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the "official" uneployment numbers are a bunch of hogwash because they conveniently ignore people who are unemployed and give up looking.

Dan, you and your fellow Neo-liberals need to get a brain.

DanS is offline DanS
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quote:
A more real tabulation of the unemployed that counts all unemployed people (without regard to whether or not they are actively seeking work) would have showed a decrease.


Bingo.

quote:
the "official" uneployment numbers are a bunch of hogwash because they conveniently ignore people who are unemployed and give up looking.


I agree with this, in most part (other than to say that the numbers aren't precisely hogwash, but in the short term have little meaning). Direct your trash talk at somebody else. Thanks.

JimmyCracksCorn is offline JimmyCracksCorn
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quote:
Originally posted by pchang
Official unemployment numbers are fuzzy figures because they only count those actively seeking work. In this case, unemployment rose because unemployed people who had previously given up on finding work became encouraged and began to actively seek work again. A more real tabulation of the unemployed that counts all unemployed people (without regard to whether or not they are actively seeking work) would have showed a decrease.


So you're saying it doesn't count because we didn't know these people were jobless before?

pchang is offline pchang
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Are you being purposely obtuse?

JimmyCracksCorn is offline JimmyCracksCorn
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quote:
Originally posted by pchang
Are you being purposely obtuse?


Unfortunately not.

I'm saying it doesn't make much of a difference to me whether we have new jobless people looking for jobs or old jobless people who have started to search again. It still equals more people looking for jobs, as indicated by the rise in jobless claims. Even you must be able to see that.

So unless you have special figures which indicate that the amount of jobless claims in the US has actually gone down, your claims are merely unsubstantiated speculation.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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McJobs for everyone! No need to apply if you're looking for a quality job.

Jimmy, the US dollar keeps sinking because Bush keeps spending like a crack whore on a drug binge. I have a bet with Dan that the US budget deficit will grow this year dispite Bush's claims that he'll half it. I figure a man can never go wrong betting that Bush is financially irresponsible.

pchang is offline pchang
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There are estimates (not sanctioned by the government) that do not try to play games with the measurement of the number of unemployed. They conduct household surveys and do not rely on:
people actively looking for work
number of unemployment claims filed
number of people receiving unemployment benefits

These estimates put the unemployment figures at a much higher level than the official government ones. They also tend to lag the government reports by about 1 month. However, most will agree that population growth results in about 150,000 new workers entering the population every month. Thus, a gain of 260,000 jobs in a month will easily surpass this number. Thus, by any consistent count of the number of unemployed, this would result in a real decrease in unemployment.

Official numbers cannot be used to make real and meaningful analyses.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
Dan, you and your fellow Neo-liberals need to get a brain.


No need to be insulting, comrade.

DanS is offline DanS
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  Old Post 04-03-2005 23:21 Visit DanS's homepage!
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pchang: Well, the headline jobs number published by the government is very solid. Very accurate survey.

pchang is offline pchang
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  Old Post 04-03-2005 23:22
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If every new job was a McJob, the average hourly wage would have fallen (since the average hourly wage is higher than the minimum wage). Since this was not the case, every new job was not a McJob.

Based upon the assumption that McJob implies minimum wage job.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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  Old Post 04-03-2005 23:26
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good news - i am no longer pessimistic about the US economy. if we continue at this rate, we will be at positive job growth since bush took office by the end of the year. thats 400,000 new jobs since the beginning of the year.

i wonder if we can calculate using change in unemployment rate after job creation statistics, what the real unemployment rate was during the peak of the recession (6.5%? 6.7%)

Thucydides is offline Thucydides
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  Old Post 04-03-2005 23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by pchang
If every new job was a McJob, the average hourly wage would have fallen (since the average hourly wage is higher than the minimum wage). Since this was not the case, every new job was not a McJob.

Based upon the assumption that McJob implies minimum wage job.


Does anyone know what the average hourly wage is, and how it's changed over time? Something that takes inflation into account would probably be necessary for accurate comparison. I'm not trying to make a point either way, I'm just curious what it is. My understanding is that it's been stagnate since the 1970's.

Odin is offline Odin
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quote:
Originally posted by pchang
Based upon the assumption that McJob implies minimum wage job.


Bad assumption.

Odin is offline Odin
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  Old Post 04-03-2005 23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Thucydides


Does anyone know what the average hourly wage is, and how it's changed over time? Something that takes inflation into account would probably be necessary for accurate comparison. I'm not trying to make a point either way, I'm just curious what it is. My understanding is that it's been stagnate since the 1970's.


It has acctually been going DOWN since the 70's if I remember right...

pchang is offline pchang
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In my opinion, we should just count all the people who are of working age and subtract all the people who have jobs to get the number of unemployed. This is straight forward and cannot be mucked with. Of course, unemployment figures will be higher, but the real answer is reanalyze the meaning of these figures.

PS I am getting tired of economic analysis colored by political bias.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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What do you think about the flattening yield curve? Things are strange right now.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
It has acctually been going DOWN since the 70's if I remember right...


From 1973 to some time in the mid-90s, real wages droped about 10%, even though family incomes had gone up by 50%. The rise of two income families accounts for the latter. Then, from the mid to late 90s, real wages grew considerably, such that by the end of the decade, there had been 10% growth over 1973, or a 25% rise in wages. Since Bush took office, all of the ground gained in the 90s has been lost, and we're back where we were at the begining of Clinton's 2nd term. I might be a little off on the late 90s statisitics, but that's what I remember reading.

pchang is offline pchang
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however, those numbers were based upon using raw inflation numbers instead of purchasing power parity numbers.

Odin is offline Odin
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The 90's wild spending binge:
Conspicuous consumption distroying my country:

 
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