07-03-2005 23:11									#31
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we're not selling weapons, other laws and rules prevent us from doing so. we're just lifting a symbolic embargo - for whatever reasons.

	08-03-2005 03:50									#32
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Australia lifted their embargo back in 1992.... just 3 years after Tienamun Square. Hurray for brown nosing!

On another note...

quote: China warns Australia on Taiwan stance March 8, 2005 - 5:44AM China has warned Australia to be careful about the way it treats the ANZUS alliance with the US in dealing with the Sino-US conflict over Taiwan. Beijing is reportedly demanding the Howard government review the 50-year-old military pact, saying the alliance could threaten regional stability if Australia is drawn into taking sides on the Taiwan issue. Beijing's director-general of north American and Oceanian Affairs He Yafei told the Australian newspaper that Australia and the US must not invoke the alliance against China. Under the 50-year-old agreement, Australia is obliged to support America should China resort to force over Taiwan. "We all know Taiwan is part of China and we do not want to see in any way the Taiwan issue become one of the elements that will be taken up by bilateral military alliances, be it Australia-US or Japan-US," Mr He said. "If there were any move by Australia and the US in terms of that alliance (ANZUS) that is detrimental to peace and stability in Asia then it (Australia) needs to be careful." A spokesman for Foreign Affairs Minister Alexander Downer said no changes would be made to the ANZUS alliance despite Mr Downer hinting at a policy shift on Taiwan in Beijing last year. Defence experts say the warnings are a reminder of China's growing economic strength in the region and that Australia may risk its economic and political ties with the nation if drawn into the Taiwan issue.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Break...l?oneclick=true

	08-03-2005 03:55									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I find the prospect of a undemocratic industrialized China with a strong millitary terrifying.

And well you should. Its a pity the majority do not see this as clearly as you do.

	08-03-2005 04:00									#34
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I think Taiwan is one issue where Australia might not see eye to eye with the US. As a small, and weak nation we have a lot at stake economically. Plus, we're trying to negotiate a free trade agreement with China at the moment, so we're not going to rock the boat in any way.
Australia is caught uncomfortably between Asia and the West. Appeasing China is just as important as appeasing the US nowadays. Wouldn't surprise me if Australia declared neutrality in the event of WW3...

	08-03-2005 05:12									#35
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I don't know if USA would defend Taiwan, but I believe they should.

	08-03-2005 05:14									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Dracon II Wouldn't surprise me if Australia declared neutrality in the event of WW3...

And this would protect Australia how?

	08-03-2005 05:15									#37
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quote: I don't know if USA would defend Taiwan, but I believe they should.

*resists in attempt to make a joke about the role of France and the UK in the first stage of WWII*

	08-03-2005 05:25									#38
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*resists in attempt to make a joke about the role of Germany in all stages of WWII*

	08-03-2005 05:34									#39
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*especially the first - check out Poletwirp's new thread!*

	08-03-2005 06:11									#40
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quote: Originally posted by pchang And this would protect Australia how?

Not a great deal if the nuclear option is exercized... but if historical precedent has any meaning we could well become a Banking haven and a producer of watches

	08-03-2005 06:19									#41
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If China and the US are destined to fight WW3 against each other, I sure wish it would be over something more important than TAIWAN.

for pete's sack!@

generally, I lean towards wanting Taiwan to remain democratic... I believe the overall solution to this situation would be to push for democratic reforms in China... then, when China becomes sufficiently "democratic" let them reunite... or hold a referrendum...

but in all honesty, I could give half a **** about all this ****

	08-03-2005 06:57									#42
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Taiwan free at last, free at last. ML King said that without refering to Taiwan.

The Republic of Taiwan.

	08-03-2005 07:09									#43
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom In which case when the Nationalists leave it will presumably revert to 'native' rule. Or Dutch rule. Unless you can find a Manchu or Ming aristocrat who wants to step in. "When defeated by the Qing in the epic battle for Nanjing in the mid-17th century, Zheng had little choice but to flee China and re-establish his base "overseas". Enter Taiwan, which the Dutch had occupied since 1624, and whom Zheng expelled after a lengthy war. Zheng was not a pre-modern Chiang Kai-shek, however, who was preparing to retake China; rather he aimed to invade the Philippines. As for the milk and honey, well, the "Taiwanese natives were less pleased, since their island was merely swapping one set of conquerors for another," Clements writes. 'Pirate King: Coxinga and the Fall of the Ming Dynasty' goes beyond just the biographical details of the legendary warrior. As its subtitle indicates, the book begins with the collapse of the Ming Dynasty in 1644 and recounts in an engaging narrative the pivotal events of China's dynastic upheaval: The fall of the Ming; the invasion of the Manchus from the north and the establishment of the Qing Dynasty in Beijing; and the fight for the south that would not be complete until Taiwan was conquered in 1683. " http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FH28Ad03.html

So Taiwan was taken over by an independent Chinese warlord in the late 17th century? How long did Taiwan then remain independent of the Chinese monarchy?

	08-03-2005 07:44									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove So Taiwan was taken over by an independent Chinese warlord in the late 17th century?

No. Zheng was a general of the Ming dynasty, and he pledged allegiance to the Ming dynasty even after the Mainland fell to the nasty Manchus. Thus, the situation was an exact parallel of today's situation. Zheng made several attempts to counterattack, but was eventually repelled.

	08-03-2005 07:48									#45
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quote: Originally posted by pchang And well you should. Its a pity the majority do not see this as clearly as you do.

"Democratic" and "warmongering" are not mutually exclusive. The US is a prime example of this.

	08-03-2005 07:52									#46
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The question is: Will China stop at Taiwan if we don't defend it? They have already grabbed Tibet and part of India. They have invaded North Vietnam and set up a client state in North Korea. Now they threaten Austrailia if they even come out as supporting us? Not to mention that the number one espionage threat in the USA is China.

People better start giving a **** or better start learning Chinese. A stand must be made somewhere. I would prefer to do it in the straits of Taiwan as opposed to the beaches of California. Not to mention the fact that we would be defending a democratic country from an authoritarian government.

	08-03-2005 07:53									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger "Democratic" and "warmongering" are not mutually exclusive. The US is a prime example of this.

Undemocratic and warmongering...China is a prime example of this.

	08-03-2005 08:04									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Invasion is completely not viable- the US has a hard enough time with Afghanistan and Iraq, and the US is even willing to offer elections and promises eventual independence. To occupy a heavily urbanized nation with a larger population would be costly and difficult.

See you are missing the point. In order to win you don't have to invade China you just have to keep them out of Taiwan and bomb the crap out of them/embargo them until they get tired and give up.

	08-03-2005 08:05									#49
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hahaha PLATO is paranoid... you smoke pot PLATO?

	08-03-2005 08:08									#50
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As a student of the Chinese language (as well as a practioner of Chinese martial arts), I'll welcome the glorious Chinese Army when they arrive in California, and offer my services to help keep the American rabble in line

	08-03-2005 08:12									#51
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As long as we're talking about China the BBC has a nice article about how China continues to be an oppressive police state. Even the rule of law is questionable.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4326341.stm

	08-03-2005 08:17									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Sava hahaha PLATO is paranoid... you smoke pot PLATO?

Not in many, many years.

...but I am paranoid about China.

	08-03-2005 08:19									#53
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quote: set up a client state in North Korea

No they haven't.

	08-03-2005 08:23									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko No they haven't.

Yeah, Dear Leader just goes against Beijing all the time.

...or have we not noticed that he only "defies" Beijing when it just happens to be in Beijings greater interest?

	08-03-2005 08:48									#55
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Yeah, Dear Leader just goes against Beijing all the time. ...or have we not noticed that he only "defies" Beijing when it just happens to be in Beijings greater interest?

Well back during the Cold War, the NKoreans were quite good at playing the Ruskies and the Chinese off against each other, of course since then the NKoreans are a bit more dependent on the Chinese, but the Dear Leader is to batshit crazy to be a client state. A client state would cause less diplomatic headaches for the chinese.

	08-03-2005 08:49									#56
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North Korea is kept alive via a life line from China. Food, oil, electricity, coal, and raw materials are all given free of charge in order to prevent the North from imploding. Let's also not forget that the only reason there has been a North Korea is because the Chinese invaded Korea.

	08-03-2005 09:04									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko A client state would cause less diplomatic headaches for the chinese.

What diplomatic headaches? Everything they have done has only pissed of China's ultimate foes. North Korea having nukes and snubbing the US is a headache for who? The US far more than China I say. Net gain...China.

	08-03-2005 09:53									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin As long as we're talking about China the BBC has a nice article about how China continues to be an oppressive police state. Even the rule of law is questionable. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4326341.stm

Can't access the BBC from the mainland.


So much bullying, and China has yet to build a formidable enough military to back it up. Chilling view of things to come?

	08-03-2005 10:27									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Let's also not forget that the only reason there has been a North Korea is because the Chinese invaded Korea.

Didn't you know that China is the most peaceful and humble country? They have never invaded anyone

	08-03-2005 11:12									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin North Korea is kept alive via a life line from China. Food, oil, electricity, coal, and raw materials are all given free of charge in order to prevent the North from imploding. Let's also not forget that the only reason there has been a North Korea is because the Chinese invaded Korea.

That does not make NK a client state anymore than Haiti is a client state of the US (or was int he 90's). Just like the uS does not want refugees, China does not want refugees, and a split Korea is also a weaker Korea, so it serves two purposes. That does not make it as client- if it were a client, why would it need nukes? A client state would never get nukes.