07-03-2005 20:10									#1
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Hey I was wondering what everyone thought of the best Mod-Made Governments. I have always thought there should be some more depths to the political systems. I was thinking of making a government that works as a bridge to Communism like Republic is a bridge to Democracy. The way I see it is this:

(+) Economy ----------------- (-) Economy
DEMOCRACY---REPUBLIC---COMMUNISM
(-) Unit Support ------------- (+) Unit Support

There is nothing nothing that is a bridge between Republic and Communism where I feel there should be. So I was thinking about making a government called Democratic Socialism where the economy is not as bad as Communism but worse than Republic and the Unit Support and WW is better than Republic but worse than Communism.

(+) Economy -------------------------------------- (-) Economy
DEMOCRACY---REPUBLIC---DEMO SOCIALISM---COMMUNISM
(-) Unit Support ---------------------------------- (+) Unit Support

I dont know, I would be interested to hear everyone's thoughts on Democratic Socialism, as well as hear about any Mod-Made governments from anyone else.

Thanks!

Last edited by theDragon on 07-03-2005 at 20:21

	11-03-2005 02:03									#2
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Social Democracies tend to have good economies! Just look at Sweden, Norway and Denmark (Denmark is "desocialing" now though )!

Last edited by Scorpi40000 on 11-03-2005 at 02:09

	11-03-2005 02:28									#3
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Sweden used to have a best economy in the world. Until sometime in the 70s the socialist govt got very out of hand with major projects that those they were intended for never wanted.
(Public Housing in one section of Stockholm.) That section is now full of immigrats from around the world with few native Sweeds, who like Americans prefer owning homes.

	11-03-2005 03:19									#4
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Social Democracies heavily taxes it's citizens to pay for public services such as roads, hospitals, schools and the like. This makes sure that the rich helps the poor and allow for more evenly distributed wealth. For example is the gap between rich and poor way smaller in scandinavia than in the US.

In civ3 I would split Democracy in two, Social Democracy and Liberal Democracy.

Both would have commerce bonus. Soc. Demo. would have either communal or minimal corruption and Lib. Demo. would have either nuisance or minimal. Soc. Demo. would require no maintenance (Heavy taxation) but support little or no military and Lib. Demo. would support a reasonable army (There's always companies trying to profit on war)...

Placing Social Democracy near Communism on a Economy/Military scale is just absurd.

	11-03-2005 03:23									#5
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Thanks guys, and I must say I agree completely with you too, its just I wasnt sure how much people would apprechiate just another Rep govern't adding to the list. I like the idea of splitting Democracy up and I think i will look into that. THANKS!

	11-03-2005 03:27									#6
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Too late! I have already copyright on that idea! Now it'll cost you!
"500 bucks up front and it's yours!"

Just kidding...

	11-03-2005 03:31									#7
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Maybe that hypercapitalist as my avatar is a little "misplaced" with my socialistic tendencies...

	11-03-2005 04:19									#8
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Heres a thought that just hit me - WW. What to do of that? Should it have the same WW as Republic? Democracy? Or none? Would love to hear some feedback.

	11-03-2005 19:05									#9
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I think WW should be the same for both! Very high!

	11-03-2005 21:50									#10
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To me, it looks like the "socialist democracies" have even more trouble with WW than the "liberal democracies." And in addition tend to have smaller militaries. And yes, if you regard many social programs and narrow tax breaks as corruption, they also suffer more from than than "liberal democracies"

This presents a definate playability problem. Who would pick a govt within CivIII that's worse in all ways compared to another govt.

As is, in both stock conquests and AU, it is unpopular among the best players to switch from Republic to Democracy [non-Relgious civ], because Democracy's advantage is generally too small to make up for the probable seven to nine turn anarchy.

I'm starting to think that the best solution is to revert Republic to the pre-Conquests settings. (No free unit support, but no double the cost either.) Combined with adding an FBI Small Wonder that functions as a SPHQ but for Democracies.

Last edited by joncnunn on 13-03-2005 at 00:12

	12-03-2005 15:43									#11
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Ok for once i didn't say corruption should be higher than Liberal! I said it should be minimal. And to make up for the small army you wouldn't have to pay maintenance for your buildings. And WW should be the same!

In short: No building maintenance (That means not having to pay gold each turn for buildings!), lower corruption than Liberal, same WW as Liberal, smaller army than Liberal.

	15-03-2005 06:46									#12
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Based on some intense discussions I've had with a friend of mine, I've been thinking lately about adding our two favourite anarchic social-models, Anarchosocialism and Anarchocapitalism. While they aren't "governments" in the traditional sense, they represent a total lack thereof without the entire nation living in chaos - one with a capitalistic economy and the other a socialistic economy. Of course they'd be basically impossible before the modern age and probably require The Internet to apply or somesuch. Thoughts?

	15-03-2005 20:50									#13
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Anarchical GOVERNMENT... Interesting.. however I dont know how I feel about that yet...


However, I have on another note, come up with a decision for my own governmental issues. I thank you all for your input, for I am going ahead and using the idea of breaking up Democracy (copyright or not ) in an effort to make it more bearable. I have also read up on Apolyton University's Government Mod Thread and have come to the same conclusion: Later governments need to become more appealing to both the AI and Humans. Thus I have come up with the following:


NAME-----------Unit Support (Support Cost)---WW-----Corruption-(1-6)(1=best)

Monarchy-----------1.4.3-(2)----------0--------------4
Fuedalism-----------4.3.1-(3)----------0---------------5
Republic-----------1.2.3-(3)---------low--------------3
Fascism------------2.4.10-(3)---------0----------------3
Communism-----7.7.7-(2)-----------0----------------3
Social Demo------2.4.4-(2)----------low--------------1
Demo Socialism--1.2.2-(3)----------high-------------2

I would like to hear everyone's ideas/thoughts on that... I still need to test the Corruption and unit support presently. I think that the way it is right now isnt perfect, but its a good start to making the ancient governments obsolete and evening out the modern governments IMO.

THANKS!

Last edited by theDragon on 16-03-2005 at 20:30

	17-03-2005 23:55									#14
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quote: Originally posted by theDragon Monarchy-----------1.4.3-(2)----------0--------------4 Fuedalism-----------4.3.1-(3)----------0---------------5 Republic-----------1.2.3-(3)---------low--------------3 Fascism------------2.4.10-(3)---------0----------------3 Communism-----7.7.7-(2)-----------0----------------3 Social Demo------2.4.4-(2)----------low--------------1 Demo Socialism--1.2.2-(3)----------high-------------2

Hmm.. I am very curious about your modern govt choices.

What would, say, the current Japanese government be in your proposed list of govts?

What would the U.S. govt be in your list?

What would the Mexican govt be in your list?

What would the Swedish govt be in your list?

	18-03-2005 00:06									#15
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My thinking on this is that if you do a split, it should be like RAR does. RAR doesn't do everything right, but they are close on their governments. Representative modern govts are:

Constitutional Monarchy
Federal Republic
Social Democracy

All of them have high WW. The advantages and disadvantages lie in the special wonders that go with them. I think this would have to be done to make them all equally desirable...depending on what playstyle one wanted to play.

Social D should probably have higher support costs but to offset this, it should have some govt-specific happiness improvements (like Universal Health Care) that only Social D's can build.

Social D could also be communal corr. but that I would have to study more. It's a neat concept, a representative govt (with the trade bonus) but with communal corruption.

I don't like the idea of an FBI wonder to act as a SPHQ in a Federal Democracy, for example. The thought of a "big brother" police state wonder such as the FBI is anathema to a representative government such as a Fed Dem. Rather, Fed Dem could have a "The Constitution" wonder that acts as a SPHQ or somesuch.

And Const Mon? What would it get? Why, "Magna Charta" or course!

	18-03-2005 01:32									#16
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Well, another possibility for the reducing corruption wonder for Democracy would be the "Elliott Ness" wonder.

	18-03-2005 01:41									#17
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Interesting... However, does anyone have the actual STATS for any of those governments? They would be greatly appreicated. I am completely open to other Governments and other changes to my current list. As I said before, I know for a fact that the current chasis is not perfect, and I would like it to be amended with all of your help. Adding governments and/or changing the chasis I posted before will be great.

The goals I want accomplished from the government changes are:
1) Making Modern governments more appealing and thus making Ancient governments obsolete at some point.

2) Make the Ancient governments equal to each other and make the choice of Ancient gov's to be based more concretely upon situational basis instead of a beeline to (Ex. Republic).

3) Make the Modern governments equal to one another also, as well as make the Modern governments even out within itself. (Ex. Communism)

I am open to any options as far as changing current government stats and new governments being added to the GovChasis.

I ask that we could get some approximate STATS on them however.
THANKS ALOT EVERYONE!

	18-03-2005 02:09									#18
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One more thing has been presented to me after reading more of AU's Balancing the Governments thread:

Fascism - Take out Forced Resettlement?
Personally, I would not shed tears over this. Xenophobia is enough to make Fascism unique to me, however I would once again love to hear everyone's opinion on the matter.

	19-03-2005 12:35									#19
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Actual stats? Well that kind of depends on many other factors, like how the rest of the mod is set up, particularly as it concerns unit cost stats.

As I said though, I think a communal corruption govt with the representative govt trade bonus would be interesting...and that would be:

Social Democracy: 0/0/0 support; unit cost 3 or 4 or 5 (depends) per turn; high WW; communal corruption; no draft; no mp; veteran diplomats (as if that really means anything, heheh); Universal Healthcare wonder (+ happiness?); Corporate Subsidy wonder (?); and maybe one more happiness wonder. Social D would be the ideal govt for happiness-mongers. This is to be compared to, more or less, the govt of many European countries in the real world.

Federal Democracy 0/0/0 support; unit cost 2 or 3 or 4 (depends); high WW; minimal? corruption; draft 1; no mp; Elliot Ness wonder (- like SPHQ), hehe. No, call it "The Constitution" wonder. Supreme Court-type wonder (effect not sure yet). Federal D would be like the govt of the USA, Turkey, Japan, etc.

Constitutional Monarchy 0/0/0 support; unit cost 2 or 3 or 4 (depends); high WW; minimal? corruption; draft 1; no mp; Magna Carta wonder (like SPHQ). And probably one more wonder, maybe one to reduce WW, since const mon's tend to be able to maintain long wars in history. Got to keep these 3 govts more or less equal! Const Mon would obviously be the govt of the UK, maybe Morocco, etc. but I would say countries like the Netherlands (which has a monarchy) are closer to Social D. It's a toss up if you try to transfer real-world govts to any of these categories. Even the U.S.A. has Social D elements in it.

Of course all of these are present in some of the big mods out there, in similar forms. But I agree with you, all of them should be more or less equal--picking which one to play depends on what style the player wants to go with.

I still debate the validity of a modern govt "Fascism". But it is fun and neat. And isn't Communism, technically speaking, an economic system, rather than a form of government? Maybe that could be totalitarianism or something...

	20-03-2005 07:35									#20
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The only problem I would have with those three governments is the fact they are almost carbon copies of one another.. except of course the wonders.. but I feel that different governments should have different stats all around or at least in more areas than just wonders.
At least thats my personal opinion. :-)

Last edited by theDragon on 20-03-2005 at 07:59

	20-03-2005 14:59									#21
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I think that the liberal governments, like republic and democracy, should have bigger corruption. Why there is so much corruption in Despotism? You is the unique ruler, who will steal your money?

	20-03-2005 15:36									#22
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I sorta think that kind of stuff too. I mean, I think that Communism and Democracy should have just the same corruption, I have no more faith in the greedy totalitarian dictators than I do in the greedy capitalist politicians. So I dont know whats the deal with corruption...

However the way I justify the corruption idea is to offset the unit support and military powers of non-rep govs.

	21-03-2005 00:47									#23
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quote: Originally posted by theDragon The only problem I would have with those three governments is the fact they are almost carbon copies of one another.. except of course the wonders.. but I feel that different governments should have different stats all around or at least in more areas than just wonders.

Social D has communal corr. and that's quite different from the other two. And the wonders could make a big difference in how each of those govts functions. It's all conjecture of course, makes for interesting discussion.

Well, they are similar because they are all derived from stock C3C Democracy. That's what we were doing in the first place. And they are all representative governments, so they'll all have to have the trade bonus, (I think all rep govts should have the trade bonus) and they'll all have to have a lot of WW. So it doesn't leave much room for differences, unless you were to really radically change things.

You can't give much unit support to these modern govts with the trade bonus or else you'll end up with a super-powerful govt that can support massive amounts of troops and have high gold income at the same time. I feel that it's best to have one govt for one particular play style. Social D should probably be for a peaceful builder endgame, and a communal version of democracy, but with major unit cost drawbacks.

If you radically change things, then I think it's harder to get a handle on balance. Making Demo communal...hmm..interesting thought.

	21-03-2005 20:06									#24
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Mostly, your own military commanders.

quote: Originally posted by Elda king Why there is so much corruption in Despotism? You is the unique ruler, who will steal your money?

	23-03-2005 20:33									#25
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Well in my model/chasis for the governments I would actually make Democratic Socialism the communal corruption government due to it's RW status as being such. My model would make Social Democracy a minimal corruption government.

I am still however playing with the ideas of the Constitutional Monarchy and the Federal Republic/Democracy however, but am still trying to buff out these two radical changes to my previous proposal:

1) Yes Democratic Socialism will have a communal government, however what should the two government's have as unit free supports?

I like the idea I got either from this or the other thread where Social Democracy would have higher military capabilites and Democratic Socialism would instead have free maintenance. The model would then look like this:

NAME------------------------Support T/C/M-----WW----
DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM: --- 0/2/2--- HIGH WW --- NO MAINTENANCE
SOCIAL DEMOCRACY: --- 0/4/4--- HIGH WW ---

2) The next problem I have is the fact of what to have as costs for each additional military unit be? 2 is stock Demo right? Should they both be hiked to 3? Or should only Democratic Socialism because it is not meant to be supporting a standing army? One justification for Social Democracy having a lower cost was that companies are always looking to sell to the government for a war.

I dont know and would like to hear everyone's thoughts on the two subjects above. Thanks!

	31-03-2005 21:00									#26
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ANY THOUGHTS?

	01-04-2005 04:42									#27
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quote: Originally posted by theDragon 1) Yes Democratic Socialism will have a communal government, however what should the two government's have as unit free supports?

Have you done any testing with either of those govts?

I have been doing some testing with a govt with communal corruption, trade bonus, high WW, and zero building maintenance, and 0/0/0 unit support, 5 gpt/turn unit cost.

After limited testing, I am beginning to think that communal corruption, trade bonus, and zero building maintenance is too strong. I had ungodly gold flow per turn that way. I need to test more at higher diff lvls...

So I may experiment with lowering unit support to negative values.

It was just too much. Grant you, I had a sweet starting location, rivers, lux, lots of land, the whole 9 yards.

	01-04-2005 05:45									#28
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Is taking away the Trade Bonus an option?

	05-04-2005 03:35									#29
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quote: Originally posted by theDragon Is taking away the Trade Bonus an option?

Well it is an option. I guess. I mean, if you did that you would have basically "Communism" govt, which has no trade bonus and communal corruption.

The game I played had too much gold flow coming in, and I am still trying to figure out ways to make a Social D govt have the trade bonus and communal corr. without making it give too much cash.

But why not add in building maintenance? I guess the idea behind a Civ3 Social Democracy govt was that the state supported economy would account for some of this. I think it's a good idea; there just has to be a way of simulating the high cash drain that Social Democracies have to support massive social programs and state-sponsored industries. Maybe high military cost is the way? I don't know yet, I'm still experimenting...

	05-04-2005 09:07									#30
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Well.... an idea that I have been throwing around is to make each additional unit cost some outrageous amount... say 20-50 gpt? Support cost being that high will deter the player from having a standing army but still give the government its economic strength.

(Oh, and I was thinking about keeping it 0-1-1 or something to that effect so that the defensive units could still be there with little/no cost)... I dont know... This whole government deal is a hard nut to crack!