08-03-2005 02:17									#1
	Lithuanian and Estonian presidents boycott commemorations of ww2's ending in Russia Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

in Russia.
Latvian president decided to come (as is Polish), but has sent a letter to European leaders and USA president in which she stressed that she does not agree with Russian interpretation of history.
Boycott of commemorations has to do with recent Moscow's remarks justifying Ribbentrop-Molotov treaty
and questioning the occupation of Baltic states.
Worth to mention Moscow recently also reprimanded Poland for it's negative attitude towards Jalta treaty, which, according to Russia, was a bliss for it.
Also, Russia recently, despite earlier promises, rejected to hand over the results of Russian investigation about Katyn (and other) mass-murders of Polish officers, medics, priests and intellectuals.

I admire the courage of both presidents, but especially of Estonia, for which it probably means that delimitation of boarders with Russia will not take place: participance in may the ninth celebrations was a condition of signing it by Russia, and was supposed to take place a day after.

Arnold Ruutel (the president of Estonia): - "The end of ww2 brought victory over fascism, but also forced soviet totalitarian regime upon us"
(my rough translation )

Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, independant before ww2, were during it annexed by USSR.

	08-03-2005 02:34									#2
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just shortly ago I read a rather long "essay" on some commie page that justified the whole cordon sanitaire's coming to be. they started with East Poland (which is sort of acceptable) but then continued with Finland, the Baltics and finalyl Bessarabia.

the logic was ridiculous. there was a non aggressoin treaty between the baltic republics and the USSR, which included the renting of army stations by the latter on the former's territory. so when there weer pro-fascist governments in the baltic republics, the red army had all rights to march in and protect the people voting for legitimate governments, which then freely decided to join the USSR. similar logic for Bessarabia.
Finnland just refused fair negotiations to change the border in order to protect Leningrad from Finnish artillery, so all out war was just a defensive necessity.

(all that showing how soviet-commie logic works)

they went on like that. impossible they believed all the crap. must be either deliberate bullshit to impress weak minded ones or just ideological blindness. a bit of both probably. my father told me that in the GDR government members always made up big excuses and attempts to logical treatments of political issues, in a way similar to the one mentioned. in times when even the soviets didn't even try to find justification for acts like the afghanistan invasion, East German commies would find eays to excuse anything. just the minds in the west would always have it easy to negate everything. easy enough with opponents like that.

	08-03-2005 02:35									#3
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no mentioning of the carpato-ukraine on that page, BTW...

	08-03-2005 02:39									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion just shortly ago I read a rather long "essay" on some commie page that justified the whole cordon sanitaire's coming to be. they started with East Poland (which is sort of acceptable)

	08-03-2005 02:43									#5
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yes?

	08-03-2005 02:45									#6
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Why do You think it's acceptable?

	08-03-2005 02:48									#7
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"sort of acceptable" as in "alas they have a historical background as a semi-justification, so it's the last of the 4 or 5 territorial issues I'd blame them for". it's not good, but your stupid war of 1920 or so gives them an excuse.

	08-03-2005 02:55									#8
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"That stupid war of ours about 1920" saved your German and other European asses from decades of communist rule.
Do You think Poland had any choice, anyway?
Also, there's "historical background for semi-justification" for Bessarabia, Baltic states and Finland as well.

	08-03-2005 02:59									#9
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maybe so, but it's less (example?). saving butts from decades of communist rule could be a justification for Barbarossa, dear. shall I complain about lost German territories in the East?

	08-03-2005 03:02									#10
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Yeah it's back to old times. We were just notified as well, that we started the war agasint SU back in the days. After they had already agreed they started back in... 90s, admitted some propaganda was in the way, the documents, everything, veterans, everyone agreeing how historical facts, not opinions but facts happened. Now, it's backto old times. I'm not too optimistic about this current leadership anymore. nothing but a future dictator and history revisionist.

	08-03-2005 03:04									#11
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Pekka, the claim is/was that Finnish artillery started it all. what are the facts? (maybe some sources too)

	08-03-2005 03:05									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion maybe so, but it's less (example?). saving butts from decades of communist rule could be a justification for Barbarossa, dear. shall I complain about lost German territories in the East?

Ecthelion, comparison of Poland to nazi Germany is somewhat absurd itself, to the point I do not have to comment it. Are You aware of it and are just trolling, or do I really have to answer to that?

Really, I thought You are a crazy nation with all that ww2 and patriotic political correctness.
After that post, I'm not that sure if it is not necessary after all.

	08-03-2005 03:09									#13
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Well, thank god we're finally putting a stake in the heart of Yalta. That's the big picture here.

	08-03-2005 03:10									#14
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eww, someone spent too much time in this PC place.

did you notice I used your own point against you? has nothing to do with comparing things with each other.

	08-03-2005 03:11									#15
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It's an old claim, been proven many times, admitted by our neighbour as well. I won't even start discussing about it.

	08-03-2005 03:12									#16
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just sum it up for those who have no idea dude.

	08-03-2005 03:14									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion eww, someone spent too much time in this PC place. did you notice I used your own point against you? has nothing to do with comparing things with each other.

A comparison that's not a comparison?
Strange...
Also, what "my points" do You mean here?
I didn't state any.
It was a poor, tasteless troll.

	08-03-2005 03:16									#18
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you didn't state any points, now that's interesting. grow up a bit man.

	08-03-2005 03:19									#19
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Ecthelion, it's of no importance really. The whole point why I mentioned this is, that this hast been brought up by our neighbouring officials just after our president made a speech about something, which they didn't like naturally because it didn't start with 'hello I am the president of soviet finland', which made them angry of course. Well, the point is, just they decided to announce, when this speech happened inside EU,that do not forget Finland started war. Now, that's important. Why bring it up? I know I talk a lot about it, but our officials do not. It might seem to many in here, it's only continuance to dialgoue I go on about, but you know they do not go on about this dialogue and it just started, out of the blue like that. It was a clear threat, nothing else. Official side has been from their side too for a long time now that we have agreed on things how they went, well because our reports and evidence shows it, and there evidence and reports supports and shows it also! So it's not like there has been any misunderstanding about it for years. Except now, when little history revisionism has started, going back on time, going back on words. We will see who will get the next statue, and whose statue gets bulldozed.

	08-03-2005 03:19									#20
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funny though, how the very mentioning of things can put people on the itch like that.

Last edited by Ecthy on 08-03-2005 at 03:30

	08-03-2005 03:20									#21
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Feel free to quote me.
Not any, but I did not mention Polish lost territories.

	08-03-2005 03:21									#22
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Q: Should Finnland better join NATO now?

	08-03-2005 03:27									#23
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I don't think so.. I mean, I don't think we have a need to join. It's just words, that's what it is. It was just in the news, that we can't get any closer to NATO without full membership, after we now started some cooperation in civilian field as well. There will be a big NATO exercize in here soon with tons of jets and stuff. I don't think it would serve our best interest.. frankly, I don't know what we get out of it. Maybe things will change, and then we must change accordingly, but right now, not really.

So that's one reason they like to snap at everything with us right now. The bigger reason is, that they anticipated we would be kind of like their messengers between them and EU, and that they could use us as leverage, basically be their inside man in the EU. However, that has not happened and that kind of upsets some politicians in there as well. Combination of this and few other smaller things makes the words go around, but it will not accumulate to anything else than that, that's for sure.

	08-03-2005 03:55									#24
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It would never hurt to get a premium life insurance policy from NATO, though. It's not like we have anything to lose, save for our make-believe 'neutrality' no one really should believe in any longer. Thing is, it's too late to join if **** has already hit the fan.

As for Mainila (the trumped up incident to justify the Soviet Union coming to the aid of the True Finnish (Communist) Government), I really see no logical reason why Finland would have fired into the Soviet Union in the first place. It would have been completely suicidal. By that merit alone it was a sham, a relic from the good old days when you actually wanted to have a modicum of a reason for declaring war.

	18-04-2005 13:25									#25
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Russian foreign policy is run by revisionist, neoimperialist arseholes with an inferiority complex. It's about time people started giving them a taste of their own medicine.

	18-04-2005 13:43									#26
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i might be very dumb...but didnt finland just join in with operation barbarrossa to take back the last land from the 19somethings war...?

	18-04-2005 14:27									#27
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Basically. The Soviets attacked them in the Winter War so the Finns tried to get even by siding witth the Germans.

	18-04-2005 17:22									#28
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Yes. The war with Hitler is called the Continuation War here because it was considered, well, a continuation of the Winter War. The Winter War would be that "19somethings" war.

But while people talk a lot about the Finnish strength and spirit in the Winter War, I think that's nothing compared to the Lithuanian struggle during Soviet occupation.

	18-04-2005 17:23									#29
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struglle like in resistance or 'general' oppression?

	18-04-2005 17:26									#30
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All the way to 1950 it was a very violent, armed and organised resistance, but then it started to wane out as casualties started to mount in the order of tens of thousands. Lithuania didn't go down quite as quickly as the other two Baltic states did, perhaps because Lithuania has quite an extensive history as a major European power.