08-03-2005 23:50									#31
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Republicans, present company included, are really the scum of the earth.

	08-03-2005 23:52									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I think this concept is well understood by economists. I don't think I can add to their understanding by any proof that I could provide.

Well understood? It's high school economics!

Having said that, if the minimum wage is $5.15 p/hr, I hardly think a percentage increase will make that big a dent in the labour market, and calculate that over the amount going back into G/S, you're talking more labour required to make these G/S.

"Where does the money come from?!" ask the GOP? Well, look at Mr. Bushie's tax breaks last year... they could EASILY foot the small bill per capita.

	08-03-2005 23:53									#33
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Why do you support child pvoerty? Why do you want children of single mothers to be homeless!?!

	08-03-2005 23:54									#34
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why do you support child pvoerty? Why do you want children of single mothers to be homeless!?!

Cause they are smelly .

	08-03-2005 23:56									#35
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quote: Having said that, if the minimum wage is $5.15 p/hr, I hardly think a percentage increase will make that big a dent in the labour market, and calculate that over the amount going back into G/S, you're talking more labour required to make these G/S.

The labor market overall isn't impacted too much by the change. However, the people in the labor market at that particular price point are substantially impacted.

	08-03-2005 23:58									#36
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quote: The labor market overall isn't impacted too much by the change. However, the people in the labor market at that particular price point are substantially impacted.

Not if demand for labour goes up (which it will if there is more demand for G/S, regardless of price).

What is the unemployment benefit in the US at the moment?

	08-03-2005 23:59									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Kalius What is the unemployment benefit in the US at the moment?

Crap.

	09-03-2005 00:00									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui How much of a raise of min wage are we talking anyway? If it's like up to $7/hr, then its not a big travesty we are talking about.

No matter how you slice it, a 35% increase in labor costs is substantial. Who ends up eating it, the company, not bloody likely. That means a corresponding increase to end consumer in terms of actual cost and more likely a reduction in service as employed body count declines. Thats if and only if they have enough fat to manage it. The small company is the one most likely to be affected in terms of growth and/or viability.

	09-03-2005 00:04									#39
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quote: No matter how you slice it, a 35% increase in labor costs is substantial.

Hmmm...

2,200,000 * 5.15 = 4,271,844
4,271,844 * 1.35 = 5,766,950

I'm sure a big country like the US can handle an extra 1.5m per hour. And remember that figure above is probably going to be less because of a temporary decrease in QLD.

	09-03-2005 00:10									#40
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I seem to recall any number of hot button issues during the last election cycle. Chief amongst those was job creation and the outsourcing phenom. So what we have is a desire to increase minimum wage to accelerate that process and in so doing offer a viable if unenviable career path to people who decide not to take the necessary additional steps to upgrade their skill sets to allow them to be competitive in the world market.

Seems to me we are incentiing the wrong thing.

	09-03-2005 00:24									#41
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The minimum wage is by far the best method of wealth redistribution available. It's easy to enforce, it prevents dependency, it's dignified, it injects money into the economy and it opens the door for even better jobs. And there is not a shred of evidence that it damages the economy. One of Labour's good ideas was a national minimum wage for the UK, and unemployment is still very low.

I'd respect conservatives twice as much if, just for this issue, they stopped their delusional objections.

	09-03-2005 00:34									#42
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Our best evidence shows that the demand for labor at the low end is fairly inelastic. In addition, many of these jobs are service related and cannot really be outsourced. Those that can be outsourced would be outsourced even with no minimum wage. However, the cost of things produced by minimum wage labor tends to rise (creating inflation) which tends to decrease the benefit of raising the minimum wage. I believe California has the highest minimum wage in the US. There should be no harm and some good benefit to raising the national level to the same as California's.

	09-03-2005 00:39									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I seem to recall any number of hot button issues during the last election cycle. Chief amongst those was job creation and the outsourcing phenom. So what we have is a desire to increase minimum wage to accelerate that process and in so doing offer a viable if unenviable career path to people who decide not to take the necessary additional steps to upgrade their skill sets to allow them to be competitive in the world market.

What the bloody hell is the point of having a job that you can't live off of? If the job has to go to India to be profitable, then it isn't a that could support an American anyway. In any event, I'd like to see Walmart, Burger King, and the most of the rest of the min wage jobs outsource their jobs. I'm not flying to India to buy a cheeseburger.

	09-03-2005 00:44									#44
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well let's see. If higher minumum wages cause unemployment, then you probably will see correlation between states with higher unemployment and higher state minumum wages. Let's see what the stats say:

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm

and

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/li...e_unemployment/

as you can see, there appears to be no connection. States with higher min. wage are ranked at the top and the bottom.

BTW, the state with the highest min. wage is Washington at 7.35, not California. It's followed by Oregon, Alaska and Vermont, all over $7.00

However, San Francisco has $8.50 minimum wage as a city ordinance, but I don't think that's Pchang was refering too.

Last edited by Thucydides on 09-03-2005 at 01:02

	09-03-2005 01:01									#45
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Not so sure there isn't a correlation. Among the states with the highest minimum wages, the only one that as low unemployment is VT (CT is in the middle and the others are all at the upper end).

	09-03-2005 01:05									#46
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Not so sure there isn't a correlation. Among the states with the highest minimum wages, the only one that as low unemployment is VT (CT is in the middle and the others are all at the upper end).

You forgot Hawaii, which has the smallest unemployment on the list and Delaware.

	09-03-2005 01:10									#47
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Hawaii is higher than the Fed, but not among the highest. If we go to the next tier on wages we also have DC. I think Florida may be a good test bed. However, I question how enforcement of the national minimum wage reconciles with all the exceptions and different state minimum wages.

	09-03-2005 01:17									#48
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Any increase in companies overhead makes less money available for more hiring, raises, and R&D. Which leads to more people making less, if working at all.

Who said it's a right to have a livable income?! It's also our right to be stupid, not get good grades, make poor business decisions, have kids too early with shitty partners, and other CHOICES that lead to financial hell.

Who the hell hopes to get minimum wage? Those who do DESERVE to make that change. I earned minimum wage for a whole 3 months before I changed jobs at 15 and made more. There are niches for everyone, and we all have a CHOICE which niche to fill.

There is NO excuse to be poor for a long time period, except mental and/or physical retardation. Immigrants from ALL over *Mexico, Eastern Europe, Asia, and the Middle East* come to America and start their own businesses. They are quite successful on the whole. Why is that? Surely Middle Easterners are more discriminated against than any other race. Yet, they are owning more and more businesses.

They don't *for the most part* even know our language or have had access to our culture or educational system. Yet they prosper. Why? Because in America, they can if they work hard enough, learn from failure, and make consistently good choices.

Minimum wage stall? Who cares but those who choose to make that silly wage.

	09-03-2005 01:19									#49
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why do you support child pvoerty? Why do you want children of single mothers to be homeless!?!

Because single mothers/fathers have the right to have children before they are able to care for them or themselves. It's sad that they drag the children along, as they are the true innocents.

We cannot make laws to keep people from being stupid. So, making laws that justify stupidity and enable it is just bad policy.

	09-03-2005 01:21									#50
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Yup, you're scum!

	09-03-2005 01:22									#51
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As I understand it, most of the empirical research that has been done on this shows a relatively small impact on employment, so raising the minimum wage to $7 probably wouldn't change things that much.

" And guess what, when people make more money, they spur demand for new goods and services, which means that employers need more people, which means more people get hired."

That's not correct, for long-term economic growth you want to see more investment and less consumption. Simply put, the higher the rate of growth of capital, the greater to capital to labor ratio, which leads to a higher wage rate.

	09-03-2005 01:23									#52
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While I support the minimum wage stall, I do think they overshot with the bankruptcy bill. Many go bankrupt with medical bills, even with Insurance. And while Chapter 13 should be harder to get, Chapter 7 should stay the same.

	09-03-2005 01:27									#53
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One_Mean_Rabbit:

Society can't be made up entirely of management and professional workers, you also need low end workers such as cleaners, restaurant employees, etc. So it doesn't really make sense to blame the people in these positions, as we are going to need them anyway.

	09-03-2005 01:29									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Yup, you're scum!

Because I believe in personal responsibility? Ok, fine. You're an enabler who only keeps teh poor poor.

"If only I could make SEVEN dollars an hour, I could have enough money to buy those shoes I really wanted or go to Starbucks 6 times a week!" People in America are poor not because of a low minimum wage, they are poor because of over-consumption, poor choices, and lazyness.

When FOREIGNERS can come here without knowing our language, culture, or education, and can make MORE than enough to support their families, there is NO excuse for ANY person born in America to be poor. None.

	09-03-2005 01:31									#55
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Of course, there are many economists who strongly oppose a minimum wage, some of there work is here:

http://www.epionline.org/index_mw.cfm

	09-03-2005 01:32									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi One_Mean_Rabbit: Society can't be made up entirely of management and professional workers, you also need low end workers such as cleaners, restaurant employees, etc. So it doesn't really make sense to blame the people in these positions, as we are going to need them anyway.

I never implied we do not need them. On the contrary. I believe in a balance, much like that which is attained by nature. There must be checks and balances *laws to inhibit excesses*, but also allow for freedom to move up or down.

Here, a son/daughter of a minimum wage worker can go to school, not do drugs, don't have kids too early, get loans/grants/scholarships to get higher education, make good choices, and become financially more successful than their parents, HOPEFULLY passing on those traits to their children.

We do need all jobs, no doubt. And I don't look DOWN on those who bust their ass for a low wage. I look down on those who think they are stuck there, or that their children cannot achieve more. Because here, it's simply not true.

	09-03-2005 01:55									#57
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OMR, you are so deluded it is sickening.

The idea that poor people are lazy is a myth. Most of the poor people I know work very hard. A good example I have is the mother of a close friend (the friend is still in high school and he has a mentally retarded older brother). She is a single mom (the dad is in jail for assault, the stepdad died of a stroke about a year ago) works 2 low-paying jobs (because she never had enough money to go to a 2-year college), and still makes barely enough to get by, let alone help pay for my friend's college education.

The American Dream is dead, it was probably never viable, or realistic, anyway.

Oh, and I agree with Boris, you are scum.

	09-03-2005 02:04									#58
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In all fairness One_Mean_Rabbit, a lot of the Indian or Middle eastern Immigrants that come here and start their own business were middle to upper middle class in their own countries and invest their life savings to buy the quickie marts, gas stations, etc. And most of them were professionals with English as their second language.

So I don't think it's quite fair to compare their success with others.

	09-03-2005 02:16									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Odin OMR, you are so deluded it is sickening. The idea that poor people are lazy is a myth. Most of the poor people I know work very hard. A good example I have is the mother of a close friend (the friend is still in high school and he has a mentally retarded older brother). She is a single mom (the dad is in jail for assault, the stepdad died of a stroke about a year ago) works 2 low-paying jobs (because she never had enough money to go to a 2-year college), and still makes barely enough to get by, let alone help pay for my friend's college education. The American Dream is dead, it was probably never viable, or realistic, anyway. Oh, and I agree with Boris, you are scum.

Did I only say lazy? I also said made bad choices, among other things. Not to bring her in, but since you brought her up, let's just see what mistakes she made.

1. Married an *******, almost promising her a life of single-motherhood. Was she forced?

2. There are MANY people without ANY college who make very good money. Hardly an excuse. Besides, if she is giving her son a better chance at success than she had, she is doing her job. American Dream.

The rest isn't worth responding to.

Take care.

	09-03-2005 02:18									#60
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quote: Originally posted by rah In all fairness One_Mean_Rabbit, a lot of the Indian or Middle eastern Immigrants that come here and start their own business were middle to upper middle class in their own countries and invest their life savings to buy the quickie marts, gas stations, etc. And most of them were professionals with English as their second language. So I don't think it's quite fair to compare their success with others.

And alot aren't. What about Asian's? Mexican's? Central/South American's? Or black/white/brown people here born in ghettos who become successful?

Sure, it's EASIER to succeed coming from a successful family. So goes nature. But that doesn't mean poor people are stuck being poor. That's an ideology the far left promote to stay in power.