09-03-2005 02:19									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi One_Mean_Rabbit: Society can't be made up entirely of management and professional workers, you also need low end workers such as cleaners, restaurant employees, etc. So it doesn't really make sense to blame the people in these positions, as we are going to need them anyway.

BINGO, Shi!

	09-03-2005 02:28									#62
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quote: Originally posted by One_Mean_Rabbit Did I only say lazy? I also said made bad choices, among other things. Not to bring her in, but since you brought her up, let's just see what mistakes she made. 1. Married an *******, almost promising her a life of single-motherhood. Was she forced? 2. There are MANY people without ANY college who make very good money. Hardly an excuse. Besides, if she is giving her son a better chance at success than she had, she is doing her job. American Dream. The rest isn't worth responding to. Take care.

1. He only became violent several years after they married as a result of alcoholism after he lost his job.

2. Yes, there are a lot of people who are successfull without a college education, but those are the lucky ones, most people like that work hard all thier lives and never get anywhere. Why? because there are lot more people than there are oppertunities available. "Successful" equals lucky without at least a 4-year degree. Most "rags to riches" stories are really "I got lucky" stories.

	09-03-2005 02:30									#63
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quote: And alot aren't. What about Asian's? Mexican's? Central/South American's? Or black/white/brown people here born in ghettos who become successful?

I love being part of the model minority.

Most Indian and Middle Eastern immigrants are middle to upper middle class, as rah said.

As are most East Asians. As are a good fraction of Southeast Asians.

Latinos, on the other hand, have a better mix. Why? Tickets aren't as expensive.

	09-03-2005 02:31									#64
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Yep, Krugman wrote a great editorial about it. Borrowing the most important parts:

quote: A vast majority of personal bankruptcies in the United States are the result of severe misfortune. One recent study found that more than half of bankruptcies are the result of medical emergencies. The rest are overwhelmingly the result either of job loss or of divorce. To the extent that there is significant abuse of the system, it's concentrated among the wealthy - including corporate executives found guilty of misleading investors - who can exploit loopholes in the law to protect their wealth, no matter how ill-gotten. One increasingly popular loophole is the creation of an "asset protection trust," which is worth doing only for the wealthy. Senator Charles Schumer introduced an amendment that would have limited the exemption on such trusts, but apparently it's O.K. to game the system if you're rich: 54 Republicans and 2 Democrats voted against the Schumer amendment. [...] Warren Buffett recently made headlines by saying America is more likely to turn into a "sharecroppers' society" than an "ownership society." But I think the right term is a "debt peonage" society - after the system, prevalent in the post-Civil War South, in which debtors were forced to work for their creditors.

More evidence that this gov't is owned by the rich and privileged.

	09-03-2005 02:31									#65
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quote: 2. Yes, there are a lot of people who are successfull without a college education, but those are the lucky ones, most people like that work hard all thier lives and never get anywhere. Why? because there are lot more people than there are oppertunities available. "Successful" equals lucky without at least a 4-year degree. Most "rags to riches" stories are really "I got lucky" stories.

Bingo.

Although, I think it's good for people to have unattainable dreams. It helps to give them something to do, to follow this empty but toxic shell called the "American Dream": 2.6 kids, suburbs, minivans and tellys. It drives our consumeristic nature, lets us exist spending more than we earn, all for the corporate world.

It's survival of the fittest at its best. I don't see why any of you want to make things all happy and lovey for the underclass. If they're sedate, content with the scraps they have, then they won't have a (futile) drive to better themselves.

Besides, there are always other ways of getting out of the Misery: chemicals, bullets...

	09-03-2005 02:32									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe No matter how you slice it, a 35% increase in labor costs is substantial. Who ends up eating it, the company, not bloody likely. That means a corresponding increase to end consumer in terms of actual cost and more likely a reduction in service as employed body count declines. Thats if and only if they have enough fat to manage it. The small company is the one most likely to be affected in terms of growth and/or viability.

I meant that if the proposal was $7/hr, then it is no travesty that the increase was voted down, not that raising it is no big travesty.

	09-03-2005 02:34									#67
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quote: Hawaii is higher than the Fed, but not among the highest. If we go to the next tier on wages we also have DC.

DC has been battling its unemployment at the lowest end forever. As the real minimum wage has decreased over the years, local business associations have been able to hire people to pick up the trash, give directions to tourists, direct traffic, etc.

The work that these people do is of real value to the community, but you could easily let all these things go untended, as we have done in the past. In fact, we would hope that these workers will move on to better paying jobs in the future and that there is nobody left to do this stuff at the given wage. But if you raise the price to hire these people too much now, you will price this kind of work out of the market and they will be unemployed.

I empathize with those who want to pay everybody better right now, but it is my view that you should shoot for full employment and then everybody will be paid better due to market forces.

	09-03-2005 02:35									#68
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Oh, please, it's a 35% raise in labour costs only if all your workers are minimum-wage workers, and in that case, you're a slave driver, anyway.

	09-03-2005 02:39									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Odin 1. He only became violent several years after they married as a result of alcoholism after he lost his job. 2. Yes, there are a lot of people who are successfull without a college education, but those are the lucky ones, most people like that work hard all thier lives and never get anywhere. Why? because there are lot more people than there are oppertunities available. "Successful" equals lucky without at least a 4-year degree. Most "rags to riches" stories are really "I got lucky" stories.

So she married a weak induvidual. Either or, bad choice in partner. And like it or not, it was a choice, a very bad one. And bad choices lead to bad consequences. And, our government has no place to come and rescue us when we make them. Hopefully, it seems like she learned from her mistake, and is still focused on giving her son a better chance than she herself had. That's success, and the way it should be.

Ahhh, chalk it up to luck. Has NOTHING to do with hard work, making good decisions, or learning from failure. Maybe his 4 leaf clover worked?! *shakes head*

Hard work alone doesn' t do it. A druggie can work REAL hard at his job, and go no where. A normal person who cannot control their spending can work REAL hard, 3 jobs even, and not go anywhere. Someone who decided to have kids before they are ready, can work real hard, and be unable to escape their mistakes. To make believe or hope that actions do not have obvious consequences is dangerous thought.

You chalk it up ALL to luck. A very sad excuse to those that do not learn how to take responsibility for their own lives.

	09-03-2005 02:43									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: And alot aren't. What about Asian's? Mexican's? Central/South American's? Or black/white/brown people here born in ghettos who become successful? I love being part of the model minority. Most Indian and Middle Eastern immigrants are middle to upper middle class, as rah said. As are most East Asians. As are a good fraction of Southeast Asians. Latinos, on the other hand, have a better mix. Why? Tickets aren't as expensive.

Does this account for everyone? Hardly, and I would deny that MOST of them are middle to upper class according to US standards, which are the only ones that matter in this discussion.

I have met so many foreign entrepenuers who came here with nothing, or very close to it. Yet, they don't come here with the mindset that only the lucky make it. Or the rich. No, they see the opportunity for what it is. They bust their asses driving taxis, until the day they own their own. They bust their asses mowing lawns, unti the day they own their own landscaping business. They accept help *given freely* from others, and turn around and help others when they succeed. They have a very powerful culture, that promotes hard work and self accountability.

	09-03-2005 02:45									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Yup, you're scum!

	09-03-2005 02:45									#72
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quote: which are the only ones that matter in this discussion.

Wtf?

	09-03-2005 02:46									#73
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One Mean Rabbit: It's fake to promise that if you work hard, You'll succeed, when there will always be losers in this "game". It is theoretically possible. There are not enough places in college, enough places at the top of the pyramid, and someone has to pick up the garbage. The notion that this someone is responsible for his fait, while there is always a loser, is ridiculous.

	09-03-2005 02:50									#74
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quote: well let's see. If higher minumum wages cause unemployment, then you probably will see correlation between states with higher unemployment and higher state minumum wages. Let's see what the stats say:

Not entirely. You have to make sure other factors aren't in the mix. You would have to do a statistical regression analysis comparing unemployment and minimum wage and track them. So no matter what the stats say, you have to seperate other factors.

	09-03-2005 02:50									#75
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Q Cubed,

quote: It drives our consumeristic nature, lets us exist spending more than we earn, all for the corporate world.

A very good reason why the poor stay poorer. As Cosby says, why spend $200 on a pair of sneakers when your child cannot read. Stupidity breeds poverty.

quote: It's survival of the fittest at its best.

You're right. And some people just don't have what it takes. Character, drive, determination. So they choose to be prey, and vote in a political group who will do everything they can to keep them poor and needy of said group.

quote: don't see why any of you want to make things all happy and lovey for the underclass.

Who said hard work, making good decisions, and learning from failure is all happy and lovey? No, it's hard work, but it's worth it to those that choose it.

What is happy and lovey is telling people "Don't worry, you aren't poor because you can't stop having sex and marrying jerks. You aren't even poor because living on welfare makes more sense than working a real job for teh same money, but also having the chance to build your resume and experience. No, you are just the unlucky. Being that as it may, you need us to protect you. Here are the scraps of society, *welfare, minimum wage* and you better like it. You CAN'T do any better. But don't worry, it's not your fault, and you cannot help it. Don't bother working or stop having sex. It will only decrease your welfare check, and thus your dependability on us. Live free, have more kids, smoke more weed, and watch more Jerry. Thanks for voting. Have a miserable life."

	09-03-2005 02:51									#76
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quote: You chalk it up ALL to luck. A very sad excuse to those that do not learn how to take responsibility for their own lives.

You do make your own luck. Unfortunately, most people end up making their luck bad. Which, admittedly, is normal. :shrugs:

quote: Does this account for everyone? Hardly, and I would deny that MOST of them are middle to upper class according to US standards, which are the only ones that matter in this discussion. I have met so many foreign entrepenuers who came here with nothing, or very close to it. Yet, they don't come here with the mindset that only the lucky make it. Or the rich. No, they see the opportunity for what it is. They bust their asses driving taxis, until the day they own their own. They bust their asses mowing lawns, unti the day they own their own landscaping business. They accept help *given freely* from others, and turn around and help others when they succeed. They have a very powerful culture, that promotes hard work and self accountability.

* Q Cubed Scratches head...
Indians and those from the Middle East are just as Asian as Mr. Miyagi... Merely pointing out that small fact, and that most of them are middle-to-upper class. And... simply expanding Rah's point by exposing your examples.

You also do realize that immigrants, on the whole, are more psychologically driven than virtually all native Americans? Immigrants know what life is like elsewhere; Natives expect things to be given to them because they're American.

Doesn't change the simple fact that the American Dream is a hollow, noxious, imaginary figment that serves no other purpose than to spur the underclass into unceasing labor. Who cares if they're paid or not?

Those of us in better positions can relax knowing we're not them; we can hold up examples of those who "make it" to give that tantalizing taste of ambrosia to the drones. Those in worse positions can, well, escape if they truly want. There's alcohol; the cigarrette; the quick meth fix; the busy intersection, the bullet, the knife. Let them.

	09-03-2005 02:53									#77
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quote: Originally posted by One_Mean_Rabbit So she married a weak induvidual. Either or, bad choice in partner. And like it or not, it was a choice, a very bad one. And bad choices lead to bad consequences. And, our government has no place to come and rescue us when we make them. Hopefully, it seems like she learned from her mistake, and is still focused on giving her son a better chance than she herself had. That's success, and the way it should be. Ahhh, chalk it up to luck. Has NOTHING to do with hard work, making good decisions, or learning from failure. Maybe his 4 leaf clover worked?! *shakes head* Hard work alone doesn' t do it. A druggie can work REAL hard at his job, and go no where. A normal person who cannot control their spending can work REAL hard, 3 jobs even, and not go anywhere. Someone who decided to have kids before they are ready, can work real hard, and be unable to escape their mistakes. To make believe or hope that actions do not have obvious consequences is dangerous thought. You chalk it up ALL to luck. A very sad excuse to those that do not learn how to take responsibility for their own lives.

The point is, we are not in control of our lives. The workplace is a virtual dictatorship, and the government is controled by those same businesses who wish to see that the workplace remain a dictatorship. Also, you assume people are rational being, we are not. We all do stupid things, that is human nature. It is not right to let a person freeze to death on a park bench because he/she made a stupid mistake in his/her life, we all make stupid mistakes in your life. Your coments show you are an uncaring, greedy, self-serving b@astard who lacks even a drop of civic virtue.

	09-03-2005 02:54									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Wtf?

*holds Whaleboy's hand through adult discussion*

We are discussing if foreigners can make it, so can natives here. They said they are upper class, but did not saying according to what? Indian economy? Iranian economy? Chinese or Russian economy? If so, it's hardly worth mentioning since it doesn' t amount to anything here in AMERICA.

Hence, the statement you quoted. Got that?

*pats whaleboy's head*

	09-03-2005 02:54									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel One Mean Rabbit: It's fake to promise that if you work hard, You'll succeed, when there will always be losers in this "game". It is theoretically possible. There are not enough places in college, enough places at the top of the pyramid, and someone has to pick up the garbage. The notion that this someone is responsible for his fait, while there is always a loser, is ridiculous.

This is right. Because there will always be people in the bottom rungs, no matter how hard everyone works, it's not right to simply dismiss and say "screw you" to people at the bottom wrongs.

quote: Yup, you're scum!

That you judge people to the level of scum doesn't reflect all that well on your own character.

	09-03-2005 02:56									#80
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Damn, Q Cubed, you're like some sort of heartless slavedriver.

PLEASETELLMEYOUWERECYNICAL.

	09-03-2005 02:56									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi This is right. Because there will always be people in the bottom rungs, no matter how hard everyone works, it's not right to simply dismiss and say "screw you" to people at the bottom wrongs.

Sure there will always be people at the bottom... but as a society we have a choice whether or not to raise the quality of life for people, despite their bad decisions.

	09-03-2005 02:57									#82
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quote: A very good reason why the poor stay poorer. As Cosby says, why spend $200 on a pair of sneakers when your child cannot read. Stupidity breeds poverty.

Not arguing this point, you know. We need idiots, mooks, in order to drive our economy. Let them eat cake, it makes them all the more easy to control and manipulate.

quote: You're right. And some people just don't have what it takes. Character, drive, determination. So they choose to be prey, and vote in a political group who will do everything they can to keep them poor and needy of said group.

...
Republicans?

quote: Who said hard work, making good decisions, and learning from failure is all happy and lovey?

Wait, do you think I'm arguing against you, OMR?
* Q Cubed scratches his head
Obviously, because you're missing the point of my argument: let them labor futilely under the lash of self-betterment; let them suffer, for it makes the lashers' lives better.

You're arguing against minimum wage because you believe in the twisted American Dream. You want them to work tirelessly because they might actually, some day, "make it".
I'm arguing that it's a moot point, because there's nothing in the American Dream. They'll work tirelessly because it's one of two options they have: believe that they'll "make it", or accept that nothing they do really matters. Most people are optimistic.

	09-03-2005 02:58									#83
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quote: This is right. Because there will always be people in the bottom rungs, no matter how hard everyone works, it's not right to simply dismiss and say "screw you" to people at the bottom wrongs.

* Az hugs Shi.

Are you wearing your "compassionate conservative" emo T-shirt now?




j/k

	09-03-2005 02:58									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Sure there will always be people at the bottom... but as a society we have a choice whether or not to raise the quality of life for people, despite their bad decisions.

That's what I was saying, that we shouldn't simply say "screw you" to them.

	09-03-2005 02:58									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Sure there will always be people at the bottom... but as a society we have a choice whether or not to raise the quality of life for people, despite their bad decisions.

Exactly, if we are to call ourselves civilized we should treat the less well off with dignity.

	09-03-2005 02:59									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi That's what I was saying, that we shouldn't simply say "screw you" to them.

I'm confused, I thought you were a Republican.

	09-03-2005 02:59									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel One Mean Rabbit: It's fake to promise that if you work hard, You'll succeed, when there will always be losers in this "game". It is theoretically possible. There are not enough places in college, enough places at the top of the pyramid, and someone has to pick up the garbage. The notion that this someone is responsible for his fait, while there is always a loser, is ridiculous.

Why are you all ignoring that I said it takes more than just hard work? Perhaps because it is an indefensible position? Hmmm.

I know garbagemen who make good money, enough money to live on and provide enough for family.

Can someone do EVERYTHING right, and be poor at SOME point? Of course. Who doesn't fail? It's the learning from that, and coming back that is the difference. But over an entire lifetime? No, no excuse. And why are you only limiting success to upper management and professionals? Is a car salesman who provides for his family not successful? Even if he gives his children a better shot at life than he had? What about a man who does construction, and allows his kids to go to college with his hard work? Is he too unsuccessful? Please...

There is more than winner/loser in this economy. SO much in the middle, that can happily provide a good life to a family. Ignoring that fact to make a false point is just silly.

	09-03-2005 02:59									#88
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quote: Damn, Q Cubed, you're like some sort of heartless slavedriver. PLEASETELLMEYOUWERECYNICAL.

There's a reason why I cheer for the Machines every time I watch the Matrix.

Sans emotion, sans feeling, everybody would fit so much better into the the Great Machine trying to stave off entropy. Keep your head down and throw your efforts down the drain, because to do anything else is to invite Horror.

	09-03-2005 03:01									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Exactly, if we are to call ourselves civilized we should treat the less well off with dignity.

Treating them wiht dignity doesn't include telling them they can only have scraps like welfare because they were born unlucky.

	09-03-2005 03:02									#90
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The Libertarian scumbags like OMR seem to think we are supposed to live to work instead of work to live.