09-03-2005 03:02									#91
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quote: I know garbagemen who make good money, enough money to live on and provide enough for family.

Are they earning minimum wage? Do they buy into the American Duty of rampant spending and consumerism?

	09-03-2005 03:03									#92
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How is "providing for his family" success.

Food is not a measure of whether you've made it in life, we're beyond that animal stage, you'd think. And the fact that somany people in the world are still hungry just goes to show that we sure have made some huge mistakes as a species, along the way.

quote: Can someone do EVERYTHING right, and be poor at SOME point? Of course. Who doesn't fail? It's the learning from that, and coming back that is the difference. But over an entire lifetime? No, no excuse.

It is possible. And the fact that it is possible in theory just shows that the system is not good. It has built-in flaws.

	09-03-2005 03:03									#93
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quote: The Libertarian scumbags like OMR seem to think we are supposed to live to work instead of work to live.

To live is to work; to work is to live. There really is no difference.

	09-03-2005 03:04									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Odin The Libertarian scumbags like OMR seem to think we are supposed to live to work instead of work to live.

Continually calling people elementary names hardly does much for your character image. And what a horrible and lame cliche.

	09-03-2005 03:05									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: I know garbagemen who make good money, enough money to live on and provide enough for family. Are they earning minimum wage? Do they buy into the American Duty of rampant spending and consumerism?

No, and no. He makes more than minimum wage, and is what I consider cheap which is beyond frugal!

	09-03-2005 03:05									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: The Libertarian scumbags like OMR seem to think we are supposed to live to work instead of work to live. To live is to work; to work is to live. There really is no difference.

What I mean is that we should be more like western Europe (points back to thread on 40-hr work week in France).

	09-03-2005 03:05									#97
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quote: There's a reason why I cheer for the Machines every time I watch the Matrix. Sans emotion, sans feeling, everybody would fit so much better into the the Great Machine trying to stave off entropy. Keep your head down and throw your efforts down the drain, because to do anything else is to invite Horror.

I believe in the inevitablity of things to come. It is important to point out that I include the actions of the people in this inevitablity. No point being cynical when you can be more idealistic.

	09-03-2005 03:06									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Oh, please, it's a 35% raise in labour costs only if all your workers are minimum-wage workers, and in that case, you're a slave driver, anyway.

If you don't beleive an increase to minimum wage likewise would translate to an increase to all lower income wages your welcome to that opinion, deluded as it may be.

	09-03-2005 03:06									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I'm confused, I thought you were a Republican.

This is why it is helpful to read people's posts.

quote: I know garbagemen who make good money, enough money to live on and provide enough for family.

Grabageman isn't the best example as that is a position that requires a little more money.

With regard to the point of there being opportunity to rebound if you are poor, that is becoming actually less and less the case. For people without college educations, opportunites have been decreasing and the average real wage for people without college education has been decreasing greatly as our economy has shifted away from it's traditional manufacturing base and shifted towards lower paying service jobs.

Now you can simply say "Go get a college education", but not everyone is smart enough for college, and not every position that society needs such as clerks and cleaners requires a college education. There is only a limited amount of opportunity to be had, and some people are going to fall short, so we ought not to blame them for their predicament, rather we should try to make their living standards better.

	09-03-2005 03:07									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel How is "providing for his family" success. Food is not a measure of whether you've made it in life, we're beyond that animal stage, you'd think. And the fact that somany people in the world are still hungry just goes to show that we sure have made some huge mistakes as a species, along the way. quote: Can someone do EVERYTHING right, and be poor at SOME point? Of course. Who doesn't fail? It's the learning from that, and coming back that is the difference. But over an entire lifetime? No, no excuse. It is possible. And the fact that it is possible in theory just shows that the system is not good. It has built-in flaws.

Providing only means feeding? What what shelter, good schools, electricity, water, sports, colleges? Changing words to fit your point is a goofy way to "win" an arguement.

And because lay-offs happen due to outside forces make a system flawed? Hardly, but who said anything is perfect. Pull your head out of the clouds, this is real life, not The Sims 2000.

	09-03-2005 03:07									#101
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quote: Originally posted by One_Mean_Rabbit Continually calling people elementary names hardly does much for your character image.

What, Scumbag or Libertarian? They are the same thing.

	09-03-2005 03:08									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi This is why it is helpful to read people's posts.

but it's so much fun to stereotype people!

quote: There is only a limited amount of opportunity to be had, and some people are going to fall short, so we ought not to blame them for their predicament, rather we should try to make their living standards better.

	09-03-2005 03:08									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Odin The Libertarian scumbags like OMR seem to think we are supposed to live to work instead of work to live.

There are people who consider you a scumbag because you support gun control and they don't want to give up their guns. Mature people ought to realize people can differing philosophical views, but that doesn't mean that they are nessecarily a bad person.

	09-03-2005 03:09									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Odin What I mean is that we should be more like western Europe (points back to thread on 40-hr work week in France).

Oh yeah, let's copy what a nation with 10% unemployment does....Great rolemodel...

	09-03-2005 03:12									#105
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quote: Originally posted by One_Mean_Rabbit Oh yeah, let's copy what a nation with 10% unemployment does....Great rolemodel...

I'd rather be unemployed in France than working minimum wage in America.

	09-03-2005 03:12									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Mature people ought to realize people can differing philosophical views, but that doesn't mean that they are nessecarily a bad person.

I know, I just get enraged when someone repeats the "poor people are lazy, let them starve" crap.

	09-03-2005 03:12									#107
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Shi,

Many entrepenuers *especially of small businesses* do not have degrees. And while you are very well-spoken and argue your side well, I believe we will have to agree to disagree mate.

However, you do your argument a service.

Take care.

	09-03-2005 03:12									#108
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quote: If you don't beleive an increase to minimum wage likewise would translate to an increase to all lower income wages your welcome to that opinion, deluded as it may be.

It will, but certainly not in a linear matter, as your stupid little calculation would suggest.

quote: Providing only means feeding? What what shelter, good schools, electricity, water, sports, colleges? Changing words to fit your point is a goofy way to "win" an arguement.

How are those possible for minimum wage, again?

and what words were I changing?
what luxuries and mountains of gold should I see between those lines?

quote: I know garbagemen who make good money, enough money to live on and provide enough for family.

	09-03-2005 03:13									#109
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quote: No, and no. He makes more than minimum wage, and is what I consider cheap which is beyond frugal!

So to be "successful" in the underclass requires constant self-denial.

quote: What I mean is that we should be more like western Europe (points back to thread on 40-hr work week in France).

Why? To delude ourselves into thinking life is actually worth something? It's only value is what you assign to it. Frankly, most people overvalue life as we know it. These are the same people who also generally overvalue human intelligence. Silly optimists.

quote: I believe in the inevitablity of things to come. It is important to point out that I include the actions of the people in this inevitablity. No point being cynical when you can be more idealistic.

Why be idealistic when you know that things will never match up to the Dream? Do you get off on being disappointed?

quote: What, Scumbag or Libertarian? They are the same thing.

'Tis better to be a Libertarian and a member of a Third Party than to be sucked into the idiotic confines of the one-party system er, two-party Duopoly. Yes, that's right: being Libertarian is better than being Democratic or Republican, because you're becoming one with the futility of trying to change the disaster that is our political system.

	09-03-2005 03:14									#110
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quote: Originally posted by One_Mean_Rabbit Oh yeah, let's copy what a nation with 10% unemployment does....Great rolemodel...

Ours only seems lower because we don't add in the unemployed people who arn't looking for work, they do.

	09-03-2005 03:14									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi There are people who consider you a scumbag because you support gun control and they don't want to give up their guns. Mature people ought to realize people can differing philosophical views, but that doesn't mean that they are nessecarily a bad person.

Your character and ability to debate as a mature intellectual is a sad rarity. Well said.

	09-03-2005 03:15									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I'd rather be unemployed in France than working minimum wage in America.

That statement right there is very revealing. Says much about your character.

	09-03-2005 03:15									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I know, I just get enraged when someone repeats the "poor people are lazy, let them starve" crap.

Getting enraged over an internet debate? Do you get out often?

	09-03-2005 03:17									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed 'Tis better to be a Libertarian and a member of a Third Party than to be sucked into the idiotic confines of the one-party system er, two-party Duopoly. Yes, that's right: being Libertarian is better than being Democratic or Republican, because you're becoming one with the futility of trying to change the disaster that is our political system.

I'd rather vote Green. Just thinking of voting for a tax evader (Badnarik) makes me nausous...

	09-03-2005 03:17									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel It will, but certainly not in a linear matter, as your stupid little calculation would suggest.

It would of course depend industry to industry company to company, however the point remains anything above 5% becomes very meaningful in the real world. Perhaps one day you can live in it.

	09-03-2005 03:17									#116
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quote: Originally posted by One_Mean_Rabbit That statement right there is very revealing. Says much about your character.

Actually, it says more about how America treats members of it's society. Being unemployed in France, I would probably have a higher standard of living than if I were working for minimum wage in America.

BTW, I wouldn't be talking about people's character if I were you, Mr. "**** the poor they are all lazy".

	09-03-2005 03:21									#117
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Come on folks... there is more than enough to discuss just sticking to the topic... name calling and insults aren't really needed... unless you have a desire to get restricted

	09-03-2005 03:22									#118
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roger that

	09-03-2005 03:23									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Providing only means feeding? What what shelter, good schools, electricity, water, sports, colleges? Changing words to fit your point is a goofy way to "win" an arguement. How are those possible for minimum wage, again?

*sigh*

That's the point. So why are we trying to promote a minimum wage, since it's just the scraps. Instead, lose this silly notion that everyone successful is blessed by the stars that are in alignment, and start telling people reality.

And all of those things CAN be achieved with working, even minimum wage. There are plenty of gov't subsidies that help people live in Section 8 housing, subsidize other things, and allow grants/scholarships/student loans for college.

I was 15 and I was making more than minimum wage. And I was a waiter in a silly little restaurant. Yeah, it took alot of work, and the work was shitty. But it paid my car, insurance, gas, and allowed me to have fun. Now, without a degree, I make very good money.

My father is a 2nd generation American from Mexico, and still works a blue collar job. Yet, that allows him to make enough money to own a large and nice house in a great suburb. Not to mention giving me a better shot at succeeding them his father was able to.

	09-03-2005 03:25									#120
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quote: idealistic. Why be idealistic when you know that things will never match up to the Dream? Do you get off on being disappointed?

Why be disappointed when you know you did your best? if you follow the "your best wasn't enough" it's just pointless self-deprecation, and if you follow that "You've gained nothing" line, it's false, also, because it builds character, and mental strength.

The material reality of inevitabilty of the future, and the strength of the human spirit aren't really contradictory. The first is the classical physics of society, the second is the quantum mechanics. The first doesn't describe reality truthfully, but it does model it VERY well. The second is the true nature of things on the human level ( not if you go into neurochemistry), but it doesn't help us at all to predict the future of society. The correct model is somewhere in between. Think statistical mechanics.

quote: That statement right there is very revealing. Says much about your character.

That he has a certain amount of self-interest, since it's better to be the former than the latter? What do you think, he has to slave for the betterment of society? Are you some sort of commie?