09-03-2005 19:41									#61
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Again I ask if anyone (named Asher) knows the answer.

I've no idea.

	09-03-2005 19:43									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I'd rate both players at just about equal Sounds about right.

Depends what you're looking for.

I buy players for value, audio quality, and battery life, so a choice would be a no-brainer.

	09-03-2005 19:57									#63
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quote: $15 a month you get unlimited access to as many songs as you want unlike Ipod where you have to pay $1 a song to burn them to your portable player!

What you forget is that you are actually renting the songs from Napster. If you decide to cancel your membership, all those songs go bye bye.

quote: Well.. I can say.. AT LEAST I DON'T SHOP AT MACY'S.

It'd probably do you good to shop at Macy's. It's a good store, good value... and a damned fine Christmas Day Parade.

	09-03-2005 20:05									#64
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So the lesson of this thread is? Buy creative and sleep with men!

	09-03-2005 20:13									#65
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I'm honestly surprised people under 65 still shop at department stores.

	09-03-2005 21:11									#66
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How did this get to be a discussion of clothes?

Fags.

ANYHOO, Asher is quite right (don't get used to me saying that) wrt the Creative being a no-brainer over the Ipod for people who care about anything other than being trendy. Especially since the 40 gb Ipod seems to sell for about $100 more than what I paid.

	09-03-2005 21:16									#67
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Once you get it, you should make sure it has the latest firmware (1.01.03).

http://www.nomadworld.com/downloads...e%20Zen%20Touch

	09-03-2005 21:21									#68
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SNR has very little to do with heard audio quality. In fact almost nothing. Anyone who says different just doesn't know what they are talking about. Fidelity is always established subjectively by every worthwhile reviewer.

The ipods I've heard have excellent sound quality once you get rid of the supplied headphones (which aren't that bad), but it all depends on what codec and bitrate you use.

I'd point out that Stereophile gave the ipod thumbs up, and I can't imagine a more demanding reviewer.

But let's be realistic, none of these players is a high end audio device - they're all glorified Walkmans.

	09-03-2005 21:21									#69
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Danke, Asher.

Oh, and Dept. stores serve their purpose. In NYC I worked a block from Macy's and would pop over on my lunch break from time to time. Overall, it had much better prices on good brands than boutique stores. I pretty much bought all my office clothes (dress shirts, slacks) there.

Last edited by Boris Godunov on 09-03-2005 at 21:28

	09-03-2005 21:32									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon SNR has very little to do with heard audio quality.

How is SNR measured and what does it mean?

	09-03-2005 22:41									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon SNR has very little to do with heard audio quality. In fact almost nothing. Anyone who says different just doesn't know what they are talking about. Fidelity is always established subjectively by every worthwhile reviewer.

That's like saying... well.. horsepower is irrelevant to an engine.. sheesh. And the measure isn't subjective. You are in deep denial over things.

	09-03-2005 22:41									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It'd probably do you good to shop at Macy's. It's a good store, good value... and a damned fine Christmas Day Parade.

Unlike you, I actually have fashion sense.

	09-03-2005 23:35									#73
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quote: How is SNR measured and what does it mean?

We've had this argument before, so look up the old thread.

Audio reproduction is as much of an art as a science (this from my friend who is a professional audiologist as well as an audiophile). You can put together components with exceptionally good numbers, which will sound terrible.

People's expectations of what counts as "good sound" are also variable. Many people actually like thumping, booming bass sounds, even though that is most definitely not high fidelity reproduction. Most people that write for tech mags (where these things are reviewed) are either not audiophiles, or prefer rock or pop music. That makes them poor reviewers for someone like me.

Some people think that their $200 boom box sounds better than a Quad system with the latest ESLs.

But the only way to really test audio equipment is to compare the sound yourself by doing listening tests. If you really care about the sound you get, you will do that, and it will ensure that you get something you like.

And that in the end, is the only thing that anyone can really say.

	09-03-2005 23:38									#74
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I'm going to wave my hands like so

* Asher waves hands

and dismiss your argument.

I will agree that whether it sounds good is subjective, but digital audio clarity is anything but subjective. It is something that can be measured and objectively analyzed.

	10-03-2005 00:08									#75
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quote: I will agree that whether it sounds good is subjective, but digital audio clarity is anything but subjective. It is something that can be measured and objectively analyzed.

Unfortunately it doesn't work. You can tell someone until you are blue in the face that X sound is closer to the sound of a real acoustic guitar than Y sound. But it ain't - as anyone who listened could tell you.

Objectivity is hopeless in judging audio equipment. In fact it is irrelevant, since music is art, not science.

	10-03-2005 00:20									#76
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Music is art, but digital audio reproduction is science.

I'm not judging which music is better, I'm judging which digital audio equipment most accurately reproduced the digital source. That, too, is a science.

Digital reproduction accuracy is a science, whether it sounds "better" or not is an "art", but I think you'd have to be pretty silly to argue that a digital device with more electronic noise is better than a digital device with less.

	10-03-2005 00:20									#77
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As someone who can play the first 48 bars of Moonlight Sonato at half speed on a 13 year old Clavinova, while still struggling to master the intricacies of wood blocks, I must agree with Agathon .

	10-03-2005 00:22									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy As someone who can play the first 48 bars of Moonlight Sonato at half speed on a 13 year old Clavinova, while still struggling to master the intricacies of wood blocks, I must agree with Agathon .

"As someone with no concept of digital audio, I agree with Agathon regarding digital audio"?

	10-03-2005 00:27									#79
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I think the truth is somewhere between the two of you. Stuff like bitrate and distortion per pitch and a load of other things are important, just like the readability of the typeface in a novel for instance, but that's a world away from the sound itself. For example, Drogue and myself have had a long running debate over whether his stereo or mine is superior. His speakers produce a more crisp, forward, lively sound, whereas mine of the same wattage (mine are Keff's, his are Missions iirc) are more transparent. In truth, neither are superior because it's all a matter of subjective preference.

The two of you need to work out whether the differences you are espousing fall into the category of verifiable science or preferential art.

	10-03-2005 00:35									#80
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Read my posts more carefully -- I'm not arguing which sounds better, I'm arguing one reproduces sounds truer to how they were recorded. Which, with digital audio, is something that is scientifically measured.

Whether it sounds better or not is subject to interpretation, and rather irrelevant in an internet debate. That's something you can only do with a side-by-side comparison, but I've never heard of anyone who said the iPod sounded better...but countless ones (Boris' account and a review I quoted in this thread alone) which say the Zens sound better.

	10-03-2005 00:39									#81
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quote: Whether it sounds better or not is subject to interpretation.

The problem is that you aren't comparing those two in hi fi,

In hi fi you are comparing the sound of a guitarist sitting six feet in front of you with a recording of said artist playing through loudspeakers. The trick is how well it can fool you into thinking that the two are the same.

	10-03-2005 04:24									#82
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I think the point is I'm comparing the two of them as music players.

One outputs comparatively muddled sound, while the other one is noticably clearer.

	10-03-2005 04:32									#83
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quote: I think the point is I'm comparing the two of them as music players.

That is just what you are not doing. You are comparing them as signal preserving devices, as if anyone really cared about that given that it has little to do with heard audio quality.

quote: One outputs comparatively muddled sound, while the other one is noticably clearer.

Not in the sense that applies to heard audio quality, that requires subjective double blind testing.

There is one fact here, and that is that comparing SNR figures will not tell you which one sounds better or which one more faithfully produces the original sound.

SNR is simply not, however you want to twist it, a measure of audio fidelity in the sense in which end users and audiophiles understand the term (i.e. what is actually heard). That is why they basically do not feature in reviews of audio equipment - because they're basically useless compared to actually conducting a listening test.

People who go on about that sort of stuff are the sort of people who think that higher wattage necessarily makes a better amplifier.

	10-03-2005 04:34									#84
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SNR is a score of how audio sounds on an objective weight, Agathon. You can't just twist it the other way and say it is not. And any audiophile know it is not smart to buy an Ipod. But what am I saying.. afterall, I did buy the Logitech Z-5500... I don't know anything about audio *not*.

	10-03-2005 04:41									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That is just what you are not doing. You are comparing them as signal preserving devices

What does a music player do if it does not preserve the signal...?

quote: SNR is simply not, however you want to twist it, a measure of audio fidelity in the sense in which end users and audiophiles understand the term (i.e. what is actually heard).

Let me get this straight.

The ratio for how much of the actual signal is heard versus noise inadvertently introduced in the process is not a measure for audio fidelty?

That is one very peculiar, and absurd, position...

	10-03-2005 04:41									#86
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Jesus...

quote: The designer of a system for sound reproduction needs to be able to measure the system's performance in a number of areas. While this is not a measure of quality but of quantity, it is a fact that certain quantifiable measurements must be of a certain order to assure quality. That said, it is possible to design systems that sound terrible nevertheless — in other words, a quality system will attain certain measurements, but the existence of those measurements does not guarantee quality.

There you have it. A succint statement of the problems confronting the designer of audio equipment.

Good numbers does not equal quality sound reproduction in the sense that users actually care about.

The problem is that there is no knock-down objective test for what people ordinarily call "audio fidelity". I wish there was - it would make audio equipment so much better.

	10-03-2005 04:44									#87
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quote: Unlike you, I actually have fashion sense.

Ok, Hot Topic boy. Do you dress up in black leather from Hot Topic and do Nazi salutes to orgasm?

	10-03-2005 04:44									#88
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SNR is part of a vast array of digital statistics that provide an objective benchmark for audio fidelity.

It doesn't matter, though. Subjectively with listening tests or objectively with measurements, I've never seen anyone say the iPod sounds better.

	10-03-2005 04:47									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Unlike you, I actually have fashion sense. Ok, Hot Topic boy. Do you dress up in black leather from Hot Topic and do Nazi salutes to orgasm?

What a immature dolt.

You ever see any of my pictures genius? I hardly dress up in black a lot... often a black shirt and blue jeans.... I only get some stuff from Hot Topic. I'm mainly an anchor blue boy.

	10-03-2005 04:47									#90
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quote: The ratio for how much of the actual signal is heard versus noise inadvertently introduced in the process is not a measure for audio fidelty?

Not in the sense in which hi-fi reviewers use the term.

There are too many other variables. You can have one system with better numbers than the other and it will sound like ****. Everyone who has ever tested hi fi equipment knows this. I'm surprised you don't.

This reminds me of the original CD vs vinyl debate. The first CDs of classical music were of course technically superior to vinyl, yet didn't really do as good a job as high end vinyl at actually reproducing listenable music that sounded like a concert.

Of course it's better now.