10-03-2005 04:49									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Not in the sense in which hi-fi reviewers use the term.

Do I look like a hi-fi reviewer, or someone who gives a damn about those pretentious *****?

They're usually out of touch with reality.

	10-03-2005 04:49									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: The ratio for how much of the actual signal is heard versus noise inadvertently introduced in the process is not a measure for audio fidelty? Not in the sense in which hi-fi reviewers use the term. There are too many other variables. You can have one system with better numbers than the other and it will sound like ****. Everyone who has ever tested hi fi equipment knows this. I'm surprised you don't. This reminds me of the original CD vs vinyl debate. The first CDs of classical music were of course technically superior to vinyl, yet didn't really do as good a job as high end vinyl at actually reproducing listenable music that sounded like a concert. Of course it's better now.

This has very little to do with the CD vs vinyl debate. It is a totally different and has different criteria. Why? Because the ipod is noticeably terrible in quality compared to say the Creative.

	10-03-2005 04:50									#93
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quote: SNR is part of a vast array of digital statistics that provide an objective benchmark for audio fidelity.

And which, while useful, are not really good enough to tell anyone which one sounds more like the real thing, or which one will sound better. That's just a fact.

quote: It doesn't matter, though. Subjectively with listening tests or objectively with measurements, I've never seen anyone say the iPod sounds better.

I've seen people make the case for all sorts, including the ipods. But the truth is that what you said doesn't matter at all.

The ONLY sure fire test is to try them out yourself and see which one you like better.

That's what any sensible person would do.

	10-03-2005 04:51									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon There are too many other variables. You can have one system with better numbers than the other and it will sound like ****. Everyone who has ever tested hi fi equipment knows this. I'm surprised you don't.

Who said I don't?

1) Every single statistic and measurement says the Zen sounds better
2) Every single subjective comparison I've seen between the two says the Zen sounds better

Your argument is what, exactly? That none of this matters, because it's not a "hi-fi device"?

	10-03-2005 04:52									#95
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quote: Do I look like a hi-fi reviewer, or someone who gives a damn about those pretentious *****? They're usually out of touch with reality.

	10-03-2005 04:56									#96
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quote: 1) Every single statistic and measurement says the Zen sounds better

And these are basically useless.

quote: 2) Every single subjective comparison I've seen between the two says the Zen sounds better

Most of which were probably people whose idea of music was "Limp Bizkit" or "Usher".

quote: Your argument is what, exactly? That none of this matters, because it's not a "hi-fi device"?

No. It's that none of it matters because you should try the blasted things out yourself if you are going to spend that much money, and buy which one you like better instead of letting cretins on the internet decide for you.

	10-03-2005 05:00									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon And these are basically useless.

I strongly disagree -- given two devices, one with an 80dB SNR and one with a 100dB SNR, I can pretty much guarantee you people would be able to tell the difference, provided they had good speakers.

quote: No. It's that none of it matters because you should try the blasted things out yourself if you are going to spend that much money, and buy which one you like better instead of letting cretins on the internet decide for you.

This is usually not possible.

1) They don't have good headphones in the stores, if they work at all
2) They don't have the music you want in the stores, if they work at all
3) A busy store or online store is not a good environment to test it out
4) Few people have friends that own both.

So what are we left with? We have measurements (ask yourself how measurements are obtained...), and we have testamonials.

Your argument that both of these are useless and advocating a situation that almost no one can do is more like a cop-out. You're acting like the person here that is using reasoning, but you're another example of Philosophers being hopelessly out of touch with reality.

	10-03-2005 05:14									#98
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quote: I strongly disagree -- given two devices, one with an 80dB SNR and one with a 100dB SNR, I can pretty much guarantee you people would be able to tell the difference, provided they had good speakers.

Basically, the answer is no.

quote: This is usually not possible.

It is at any good store. Don't shop at places that won't let you try the stuff out. If you make it clear that a purchase depends on this, most places will let you play with demo models.

quote: 1) They don't have good headphones in the stores, if they work at all

I take my own.

quote: 2) They don't have the music you want in the stores, if they work at all

Again, I take my own. The last time I bought a discman, I took my favourite headphones to the store and my three reference CDs.

quote: 3) A busy store or online store is not a good environment to test it out

Go when it is quiet then. If you are going to spend $300 plus then you'd be an idiot not to.

In fact, go to a specialist store. I think Bay Bloor radio sells mp3 players - I bet they'll let you try out demo models.

quote: So what are we left with? We have measurements (ask yourself how measurements are obtained...), and we have testamonials.

No. We aren't left with that at all.

quote: Your argument that both of these are useless and advocating a situation that almost no one can do is more like a cop-out. You're acting like the person here that is using reasoning, but you're another example of Philosophers being hopelessly out of touch with reality.

You have no argument. In fact you have nothing other than your persistent misuse of technical specifications in contexts where they are next to useless, and your assertion that doing what I have actually done my whole audio buying life is impossible.

It isn't. So you're wrong. End of discussion.

	10-03-2005 05:18									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Basically, the answer is no.

quote: It is at any good store. Don't shop at places that won't let you try the stuff out. If you make it clear that a purchase depends on this, most places will let you play with demo models. Again, I take my own. The last time I bought a discman, I took my favourite headphones to the store and my three reference CDs.

I don't know of a single store that will let you bring a CD/USB stick and download music to their demo units...

quote: You have no argument. ... It isn't. So you're wrong. End of discussion.

Here's a philosophical question for you: How can I be wrong if I have no argument?

	10-03-2005 05:20									#100
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I do love how it is a "misuse" to use the signal-to-noise ratio in a debate about digital audio fidelity.

	10-03-2005 05:25									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo What a immature dolt. You ever see any of my pictures genius? I hardly dress up in black a lot... often a black shirt and blue jeans.... I only get some stuff from Hot Topic. I'm mainly an anchor blue boy.

Though I note you didn't say anything about those Hitler salutes you do .

	10-03-2005 05:26									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Though I note you didn't say anything about those Hitler salutes you do .

I don't do hitler salutes. But I'm pretty sure you do.

	10-03-2005 05:29									#104
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Back on-topic:

But when is the Micro expected to ship...?

	10-03-2005 05:32									#105
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quote: I do love how it is a "misuse" to use the signal-to-noise ratio in a debate about digital audio fidelity

It is a misuse to think that it matters the way you think it does.

quote: I don't know of a single store that will let you bring a CD/USB stick and download music to their demo units...

Have you actually tried?

quote: Here's a philosophical question for you: How can I be wrong if I have no argument?

Because all you have is assertion, and your assertions are wrong because they are contradicted by the basic facts of the case. Simple really.

	10-03-2005 05:34									#106
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Agathon is STILL defending the inferior ipod

	10-03-2005 05:49									#107
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quote: Because all you have is assertion, and your assertions are wrong because they are contradicted by the basic facts of the case. Simple really.

Yes, the basic fact being the ratio of signal to noise has nothing to do with the clarity of the signal, which in this case happens to be ... music.

	10-03-2005 07:30									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I don't do hitler salutes. But I'm pretty sure you do.

I know you are, but what am I? Is Pee Wee Herman instructing you what to post?

	10-03-2005 09:05									#109
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And to think I thought this thread was about one was recently married and it was all ashers doing. Go figure.

	10-03-2005 09:41									#110
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I still want to know if anyone knows when the Micro is supposed to ship...

Well, just googled and found a chart showing that the 5gb is available while the 6 and 4 are still to be released.

	10-03-2005 09:43									#111
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The Micros have been shipping for a while now.

The 4 and 6 were just announced, dunno their availability.

	10-03-2005 13:45									#112
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BTW I intially read this thread title as "Took a plunger to Asher"

The mind plays strange tricks.

	15-03-2005 08:24									#113
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*bump*

Got it.

Even with the headphones supplied, it sounds GREAT. Funny, all the music that came with it is classical. How did they know?

	15-03-2005 08:37									#114
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Now get yourself some Sennheisers.

	15-03-2005 08:43									#115
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Will take a few paychecks for that.

Get on windows messenger, I need assistance tout suite!

	15-03-2005 08:48									#116
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I'm on.

davemilford AT gmail dot com

	15-03-2005 08:52									#117
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K, I'll hit you up after reboot (just downloaded the WMA9 codec for dBpowerAMP)

	15-03-2005 08:54									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Even with the headphones supplied, it sounds GREAT.

	15-03-2005 09:05									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The ratio for how much of the actual signal is heard versus noise inadvertently introduced in the process is not a measure for audio fidelty?

No, his point is that audio fidelity as you define it does not necessarily result in better overall audio quality, which can only be subjective.

	15-03-2005 09:07									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris No, his point is that audio fidelity as you define it does not necessarily result in better overall audio quality, which can only be subjective.

The quality as I'm defining it is the purity of the signal, which is objective.

Whether it sounds better or not is what's subjective. Some people prefer songs with castrated high frequencies with a muffled sound and some noise, some don't. ...