14-03-2005 17:31									#61
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Britain has sensible politics?

Says the man from the country with the '(Im)Moral Majority' , bad actors and ex-wrestlers as state governors and Pat Buchanan and Jerry Falwell & Al Sharpton.


The political circus has come to town..... and brought the freaks and geeks and Sideshow Bob too.

	14-03-2005 18:09									#62
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quote: Simple. The "potential" child is alive, and the mother doesn't become a murderer.

No. Unless you dislike the idea of eating fish?

quote: I am not sure how different that is in the UK

Other than the Christians there is no real conflict over it... we don't really have the kind of culture wars that the US does over particular political issues. The opinion I usually encounter (and bare in mind I'm biased pro-Abortion) is indifferent. It's not murder, it's not contraception (for economic and health reasons), and to each her own.

quote: every egg and sperm are also alive.

Not true, at least in the strict sense. I use a distinction between lifeform, person and being. That is to say that any kind of living organic tissue is life, so that goes from single celled amoeba to humans... it's not really a useful definition unless you want to avoid killing any kind of lifeform, which is biologically impossible for us if we wish to survive. Person is a sentient, intelligent being, such as all post natal human beings (that's not debatable), and some higher mammals. Being is basically just me, a Cartesian concept that's not really all that useful here. The debate here is of the line to be drawn between lifeform and person, whereupon killing cells becomes murder. Give me a reason for a few cells being a person and you can consider abortion murder. No such reason exists, beyond religious masturbation, so abortion is not murder.

quote: The political circus has come to town..... and brought the freaks and geeks and Sideshow Bob too.

Sideshow Bob

	14-03-2005 23:08									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Not true, at least in the strict sense.

Under your definitions then they are alive (lifeforms), just not persons.

	14-03-2005 23:09									#64
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Like Tories, in fact.

	14-03-2005 23:33									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I am annoyed when the anti-choice people think they can force thier own morality on others. If you are against abortion than don't get one. And the "you're a distroying a life" is also BS, every egg and sperm are also alive.

A fetus is closer to an adult human than to egg.
You HAVE to force your morality upon others. That's what law is about. The question is what morality You're forcing, not if You're doing that.

quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp It also says we have sufficient levels of sophistication to progress beyond single-issue politics, you internet-posting glove puppet.

Indeed, You need a high level of sophistication to write a post like that. You must have got tired. Go to bed, take a rest.

quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Bull, it's the womans perogative if she wants to bear it.

No it is not. She can not stop bearing it but by killing it.

	14-03-2005 23:46									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson A fetus is closer to an adult human than to egg. You HAVE to force your morality upon others. That's what law is about. The question is what morality You're forcing, not if You're doing that.

The morality of it is somewhat irrelevant really. The procedure exists, it was done before it was legal, and it will be done after it is made illegal. If you make it illegal, women will still have abortions, but they'll have them done unsafely and badly, with coathangers and fists and unsterile backalley operating theatres.

	14-03-2005 23:50									#67
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quote: You HAVE to force your morality upon others. That's what law is about. The question is what morality You're forcing, not if You're doing that.

Law isnt about forcing morality on others. Its about balancing competing interests (basically what government is for) to allow people to live together and escape Hobbes' "State of Nature"

	14-03-2005 23:58									#68
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quote: Law isnt about forcing morality on others. Its about balancing competing interests

You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe...

	15-03-2005 00:04									#69
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quote: You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe...

Saying this imples that you think that balancing interests and imposing morality are the same thing. Care to explain?

	15-03-2005 00:20									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant Saying this imples that you think that balancing interests and imposing morality are the same thing. Care to explain?

Of course they are the same! Balancing interests, pah! In the end someone imposes their morality other others. They have to. That's what law is. In balancing interests, one has to win out. When that law is passed, that morality is preeminent.

	15-03-2005 00:34									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Of course they are the same! Balancing interests, pah! In the end someone imposes their morality other others. They have to. That's what law is. In balancing interests, one has to win out. When that law is passed, that morality is preeminent.

What on earth are you talking about? Balancing interests is not the same as imposing morality. And balancinginterests is just that - a BALANCE - not a one sided winner takes all.

If we decide that taking something from someone without their consent is immoral then taxes would be immoral (maybe they are in a strict sense) - but instead of imposing this morality, we balance the public interest with the private interest and avoid a 0% tax that would lead to the fall of society.

I know thats not a perfect example (I'll try to think of a better one) but the point stands up.

	15-03-2005 00:37									#72
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quote: A fetus is closer to an adult human than to egg.

	15-03-2005 00:42									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant What on earth are you talking about? Balancing interests is not the same as imposing morality. And balancinginterests is just that - a BALANCE - not a one sided winner takes all. If we decide that taking something from someone without their consent is immoral then taxes would be immoral (maybe they are in a strict sense) - but instead of imposing this morality, we balance the public interest with the private interest and avoid a 0% tax that would lead to the fall of society. I know thats not a perfect example (I'll try to think of a better one) but the point stands up.

The 'balance' ends up in a law. You are imposing someone's morality on other people. In your tax example, we decide to balance interests of people wanting to keep the money they earn and society needing money to function. That law is imposition of morality! The libertarian who thinks all taxation is theft is having someone else's morality put upon him. The socialist who thinks property is theft is having someone else's morality put upon him.

Balancing interests is as much an imposition of morality as one person deciding he is going to impose his own personal morality as law. Balancing interests is just imposing more people's morality upon society. Just because more people are involved doesn't make the imposition of morality any less.

	15-03-2005 00:44									#74
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quote: Under your definitions then they are alive (lifeforms), just not persons.

True but I doubt that's the sense he meant it seeing as how this "alive" doesn't distinguish between you and me, and a stick insect.

quote: A fetus is closer to an adult human than to egg. You HAVE to force your morality upon others. That's what law is about. The question is what morality You're forcing, not if You're doing that.

And I'm closer to being Elvis than my grandmother, because of my gender. But that doesn't make me so. And no, the law does not have to force morality on anyone, merely stop others forcing theirs. If an embryo is not a person then it is incapable of having morality forced upon it, in the same manner as any inanimate object.

quote: No it is not. She can not stop bearing it but by killing it.

Actually is it, it is her body being used for sustainence and protection, she is essentially the host, and the prerogative of any host is to kick out the guest. Secondly, you say "killing it", as though it was murder. That can only apply to persons, since I cannot murder a geranium no? You must establish that all foetuses are persons, and not presume it as you currently do.

	15-03-2005 00:58									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Sava

He's playing "count the chromosomes" I think.

	15-03-2005 00:58									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat He's playing "count the chromosomes" I think.

In that case, monkeys are closer to human adults than to eggs.

	15-03-2005 00:59									#77
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quote: The libertarian who thinks all taxation is theft is having someone else's morality put upon him. The socialist who thinks property is theft is having someone else's morality put upon him.

They're not having morality imposed on them. They're having reality imposed upon them - the laws currently in place do not there to impose morality on society as you would suggest, but to ensure the smooth running of the economic and social systems we have.

	15-03-2005 01:00									#78
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errr, how is this a massive issue?

michael howard supports the limit for abortions being lowered by 4 weeks, no doubt in light of medical advances. charles kennedy has voted for 22 weeks (2 weeks lower) before and is now unsure because of advances in medicine. tony blair wants to keep the current 24 week limit. wow.

all three parties are giving their MPs a free vote, as they have alway done, so i really don't see why certain people here are getting their knickers in a twist about this.

	15-03-2005 01:03									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Sava In that case, monkeys are closer to human adults than to eggs.

That is a reasonable conclusion from a moral perspective.

	15-03-2005 01:05									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat That is a reasonable conclusion from a moral perspective.

which is why some people's "morality" is not based in reality.

my mom has a saying for things like this... it's called, "****ed reasoning"

	15-03-2005 01:15									#81
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney errr, how is this a massive issue? michael howard supports the limit for abortions being lowered by 4 weeks, no doubt in light of medical advances. charles kennedy has voted for 22 weeks (2 weeks lower) before and is now unsure because of advances in medicine. tony blair wants to keep the current 24 week limit. wow. all three parties are giving their MPs a free vote, as they have alway done, so i really don't see why certain people here are getting their knickers in a twist about this.

As i said before, its not the specifics of policy that worries me. Its the irresponsibility of using moral issues for party advantage at election time - once you do that, its all down hill to the culture wars and moral single issue voting that ruins American elections.

	15-03-2005 01:21									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant They're not having morality imposed on them. They're having reality imposed upon them - the laws currently in place do not there to impose morality on society as you would suggest, but to ensure the smooth running of the economic and social systems we have.

No, they are having morality imposed on them. The 'smoth running of the economic and social systems' is an opinion, is it not? Some people say if we lower taxes, it'll be better. Some say if we raise taxes, it'll be better. Both positions (and the status quo position as well) are based on moral precepts.

It is ALL about imposing morality. You can call it 'reality', but that simply another code word for morality.

	15-03-2005 01:35									#83
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quote: Some people say if we lower taxes, it'll be better. Some say if we raise taxes, it'll be better. Both positions (and the status quo position as well) are based on moral precepts.

They're not based on moral precepts at all. They're based on economic debates. If I say higher taxes, if used to raise the spending power of the majority and create a better trained workforce, will benefit everyone, that is not a moral stance - its a point of view based on my opinion on reality. If I said lower taxes encourage people to work harder and enable business to reinvest make for a better, more efficient economy, that again is not a moral argument.

If you claim that saying these things is the same as expressing a moral point of view then you are claiming that EVERY argument or debate that ever existed is a moral one.

	15-03-2005 01:54									#84
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quote: They're not based on moral precepts at all. They're based on economic debates.

You say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to. Economic debates are wholy based on morality.

quote: If I say higher taxes, if used to raise the spending power of the majority and create a better trained workforce, will benefit everyone, that is not a moral stance

Of course it is. Your 'opinion of reality' is colored by your morality. You believe that higher taxes would be good because of your moral beliefs that taxation is not theft and that it is better to give more to the poor and that would help everyone. Not everyone agrees with your morality.

quote: If you claim that saying these things is the same as expressing a moral point of view then you are claiming that EVERY argument or debate that ever existed is a moral one.

Bingo... at least for those that get at structuring society (determining law, policy, etc).

	15-03-2005 02:04									#85
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quote: You say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to. Economic debates are wholy based on morality.

I dont believe that there is anyone out there who believes that, say, Communism can achieve all its goals, improve the lot of everyone and would make for better economic growth and stablility and yet refuses to votes for it/support the cause on purely moral grounds. Similarly I dont believe that there are any Communists that believe that Capitalism is inherently more efficient, stable and makes for a better economy than Communism but object to it on purely moral grounds.

	15-03-2005 02:08									#86
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quote: I dont believe that there is anyone out there who believes that, say, Communism can achieve all its goals, improve the lot of everyone and would make for better economic growth and stablility and yet refuses to votes for it/support the cause on purely moral grounds.

You don't get it. The moral ideas influence the economic beliefs. If you are more inclined to believing that everyone should be equal or people should make as much money as they can, your economic views will be colored with that underlying moral principle.

quote: Similarly I dont believe that there are any Communists that believe that Capitalism is inherently more efficient, stable and makes for a better economy than Communism but object to it on purely moral grounds.

There are plenty of Commies that believe Capitalism is more efficient, but it is too cruel to be sustainable. You can argue Marx is one of those people.

	15-03-2005 02:33									#87
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quote: There are plenty of Commies that believe Capitalism is more efficient, but it is too cruel to be sustainable. You can argue Marx is one of those people.

Yes, but making a judgement on whether a system is sustainable is not a moral one. It is an opinion come to after considering the forces and work and contradictions inherent in the system - a rational analysis of the facts resulting in a prediction of unsustainability. Saying Capitalism is cruel is a moral judgement but saying that it is too cruel to be sustainable is not.

quote: You don't get it. The moral ideas influence the economic beliefs. If you are more inclined to believing that everyone should be equal or people should make as much money as they can, your economic views will be colored with that underlying moral principle.

I understand what you are saying but, getting back to the origional topic, if opinions on economic policy are subconsciously coloured by an individuals morals, they are still massively influenced by analysis of the economic facts and hand. Anti-abortion policy is a much more barefaced imposition of morality - based on pure morality.

	15-03-2005 02:59									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I dont believe that there is anyone out there who believes that, say, Communism can achieve all its goals, improve the lot of everyone and would make for better economic growth and stablility and yet refuses to votes for it/support the cause on purely moral grounds. You don't get it. The moral ideas influence the economic beliefs. If you are more inclined to believing that everyone should be equal or people should make as much money as they can, your economic views will be colored with that underlying moral principle.

The opposite is more accurately true. Moral beliefs are caused by economic reality.

	15-03-2005 04:00									#89
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quote: Moral beliefs are caused by economic reality

They're fuelled by economic reality, often acutely so, but not caused. They're caused invariably by human stupidity and those able, through upbringing or indoctrination, to exploit that.

	15-03-2005 04:27									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson No it is not. She can not stop bearing it but by killing it.

What would you say if the women could have labour induced early, say at 25 weeks or so, why life is possible outside the womb. Should the women be allowed to have the baby born early?

Then, suppose, as would be easily possibly at that stage, the baby were to catch a disease and die. Since the cause of death was disease, would the women be at fault?