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Zulu Elephant is offline Zulu Elephant
Prince

Jun 1999
time: 05:36
Angry  Old Post 13-03-2005 08:50
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Oh God No! The beginning of the end for sensible politics in the UK? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Conservative leader Micheal Howard is planning to try to win votes through waxing moral on abortion. I have no words to describe how much the contempt I hold for anyone who trys to gain votes not through proper policy, but by trying to recreate the 'moral vote' that has wrecked US politics.

I dont think Ive been so angry about something the Conservatives have done in a long while.

Sickening - I always thought British politicians, for all their faults, were better than this.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/cons...1436680,00.html

quote:
Michael Howard is to make an explosive foray into the politics of personal morality by declaring that abortions are too easy to obtain in Britain and should be curbed.

In an interview to be published tomorrow, the Tory leader says that women are effectively now able to get terminations 'on demand' - the rallying cry of pro-lifers, who argue that legal safeguards designed to prevent abortions for frivolous reasons are being ignored.

Article continues
And he pledged to vote to cut the legal time limit for late abortions from 24 weeks - where it currently stands except in cases of serious handicap or risk to the mother's life - to 20 weeks.

His intervention follows a vigorous debate over whether, now that premature babies are routinely able to survive at an earlier age, the law should be changed.

'I think that what we have now is tantamount to abortion on demand,' Howard told Cosmopolitan magazine. 'I believe abortion should be available to everyone, but the law should be changed. In the past I voted for a restriction to 22 weeks, and I would be prepared to go down to 20.'

Pro-life MPs are determined to try to change the law in the next parliament, but - since abortion is traditionally an issue for a private member's bill - their chances of success rest on whether the next government would allow it parliamentary time.

Asked the same question by Cosmopolitan, Tony Blair admitted abortion was a 'difficult issue', but added: 'However much I might dislike the idea of abortion, you should not criminalise a woman who, in very difficult circumstances, makes that choice. Obviously there is a time beyond which you can't have an abortion, and we have no plans to change that, although the debate will continue.'

Charles Kennedy, the Liberal Democrat leader, said he had voted for a time limit of 22 weeks in the past, but added that advances in medicine mean that 'I don't know what I would do now'.

Pro-choice groups warned that restricting the time limit for abortions would mean many women - particularly teenagers, who traditionally present late for treatment, and mothers who only discover late on in a much-wanted pregnancy that their child has a serious abnormality - would pay a heavy price.

'Young women make up a high percentage of late abortions: they often just don't come forward,' said Anne Weyman, chief executive of the Family Planning Association. 'They hope it's not true, or might have irregular periods if they are young, so they may not be sure they are pregnant. There are also issues around older women who are peri-menopausal and may think there's no chance they are going to be pregnant.'

She said the effect of restricting the time limit would be to force women to bear children they did not want: 'The interesting issue is why we should wish to force any woman to continue with a pregnancy she doesn't want, by saying we should make it harder for women.

'What is the benefit to women, or the potential child, of forcing a woman to have a baby? What is the benefit to society - and what sort of life is that child going to have? People will talk about adoption, but really what are women supposed to be? Incubators?'

Only 0.6 per cent of abortions are carried out between 22 and 24 weeks, she added. More than 50,000 women had terminations in the last quarter for which figures are available, an all-time high.

Howard stressed his was a personal view, with all three parties supporting a free vote on the issue. But Eleanor Laing, the Tory spokesman on women's issues, said that while as a student she had marched for the right to choose, she now supported the lowering of the limit.

'I have always thought that abortion has to be legal and controlled, because there are tragic circumstances in which abortion has to take place,' she said. 'But the real question is what is the time limit?'

In the last US election, abortion was a key dividing line between George Bush and John Kerry, with religious voters indicating their willingness to cast their vote depending on where the candidates stood.

It has been assumed that no similar 'morality vote' exists in more secular Britain, but with the main parties relatively close on major issues, some pollsters believe single issues are gaining importance.


I know it would be a small change but the overall strategy is clear and its a slippery slope once morality politics starts to infect and corrupt the system.

techumseh is offline techumseh
King
of the frozen North.
Apr 1999
time: 22:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 11:41 Visit techumseh's homepage!
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Except that it's an act of desperation. It will only further marginailize the Tories.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 11:54
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Boy, the tories are really getting desperate. What are the moral views of the average Brit? I assume it is in between the US and the rest of europe.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 12:35
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Got spare money?

It seems like he's only going to get pounced further. If I understand correctly the UK doesn't have as many crazy fundies as the US.


[threadjack]
Whoa, another Tory leader named Howard? What's with that?
[/threadjack]

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
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Aug 2001
time: 22:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 12:38
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Believe it or not, but there are people who really believe that our societies have become too permissive regarding abortion.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 12:59
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Believe it or not, but there are people who really believe that our societies have become too permissive regarding abortion.


I don't think anyone denied that there are people who really believe such a thing. The question here is whether or not they are relevant.

Sandman is offline Sandman
Prince
Sinister Penguin
Aug 2001
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 14:39
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Howard has also wheeled out his family to sing his praises, a la America.

Next thing we know, they'll be frantically waving bits of cardboard under a stream of tickertape to the words "Ladies and Gentlemen, the next Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.... Michael Howard!"

Snotty is offline Snotty
Prince

Dec 2002
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 15:00
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It did make me laugh when politicians have all the people standing around the back of the stage when giving speechs, American style

Not as many crazy fundies I guess, I dont think Ive ever met anyone who was pro-life, but its not the kind of thing that really comes up in conversation is it?

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
time: 21:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 17:33
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Howard is a dead duck in the next election. I wish the Tories would field a creditable candidate because right now the UK has the monarchy of Tony.

Clear Skies is offline Clear Skies
Prince
looking for a saviour in these dirty streets
Jul 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 17:46 Visit Clear Skies's homepage!
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It's amazing how quickly they dropped the 'Vote Blair, Get Brown' line after Labour's poll standing actually went up in response.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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Caught in a tuna net
Jan 1970
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 17:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Zulu Elephant

I know it would be a small change but the overall strategy is clear and its a slippery slope once morality politics starts to infect and corrupt the system.


"Back to Basics". Already done by John Major's government before it came back to bite them with avengeance.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 18:25
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Come on Iain, how can you reconcile being part of a member full of so much ****? I always thought you were far more aligned with Labour anyway

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
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The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 18:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Howard is a dead duck in the next election. I wish the Tories would field a creditable candidate because right now the UK has the monarchy of Tony.


Well he's scuppered, I don't think there is a chance that Blair will lose the next election, and by all rights, he should...

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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Caught in a tuna net
Jan 1970
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 18:33
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I would laugh so hard if the LibDems were somehow able to get comparable seat numbers to the Tories.

It would mean tripling their current seat count though....

Heresson is offline Heresson
King
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Jun 2000
time: 06:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 18:37
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Curbing abortion

Heresson is offline Heresson
King
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Jun 2000
time: 06:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 18:39
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quote:

'What is the benefit to women, or the potential child, of forcing a woman to have a baby?




Simple. The "potential" child is alive, and the mother doesn't become a murderer.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 18:40
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There is a Pro-Life Alliance party that fields quite a few candidates, they still get hardly any votes and far less coverage than UKIP, Respect or the old Referedum party.

Its really not an issue in the UK.

Heresson is offline Heresson
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Jun 2000
time: 06:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 18:42
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It seems British are void of morality, then.
It's high time to change it.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 18:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
It seems British are void of morality, then.
It's high time to change it.


Bull, it's the womans perogative if she wants to bear it.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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Jan 1970
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 18:57
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I find it amazing how many educated people still can't spell prerogative.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
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The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 19:00
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Next time you make a typo, you're for it

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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Caught in a tuna net
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time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 19:04
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Oh capr nwo I is in dpee dooodo

VJ is offline VJ
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Dec 2001
time: 07:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 19:15
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Sensible politics in the UK...

Immortal Wombat is offline Immortal Wombat
Prince
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Dec 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 19:18 Visit Immortal Wombat's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
It seems British are void of morality, then.
It's high time to change it.

Alas, having unburdened ourselves of our morals, we are unwilling to be re-encumbered by them.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 19:19
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Don't blame him, the pope told him to say it!

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 20:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Don't blame him, the pope told him to say it!





I am annoyed when the anti-choice people think they can force thier own morality on others. If you are against abortion than don't get one. And the "you're a distroying a life" is also BS, every egg and sperm are also alive.

Lazarus and the Gimp is offline Lazarus and the Gimp
King
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Aug 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
It seems British are void of morality, then.
It's high time to change it.


It also says we have sufficient levels of sophistication to progress beyond single-issue politics, you internet-posting glove puppet.

Lazarus and the Gimp is offline Lazarus and the Gimp
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Aug 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 21:20
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There is nothing wrong with Michael Howard that couldn't be solved by rolling him down a very long slope in a barrel full of enraged and panicking badgers.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 21:39
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That sounds like a wonderful idea!

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
  Old Post 13-03-2005 21:49 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Britain has sensible politics?

 
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