23-03-2005 13:28									#91
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Communism

Socialism OTOH...

Let's bring some fervor in the SPDG!!!

We even might be able to atone Tass.

	23-03-2005 13:54									#92
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quote: Also, it wouldn't give us too soon technological superiority over the AI's. Again, this keeps us on our toes way longer.

good point.

	23-03-2005 17:30									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar The Hive is the best roleplay faction, btw. Strong ideological base that won't annoy all of us (and communism automatically adds +2 coolness on the SE table)

The Hive isn't communist, Planned economy is not their agenda, Police State is. And Police State means we can't run democracy. How can we have elections while we're a faction that uses a police state?

We can't RP as the Hive and be consistent or realistic.

	23-03-2005 17:42									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue The Hive isn't communist, Planned economy is not their agenda, Police State is. And Police State means we can't run democracy.

Their "agenda" makes it very profitable to run both Police State and Planned with no negative Efficiency. I would say that qualifies the Hive as communists...

	23-03-2005 18:47									#95
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Also, even Police States (or Fundamentalist states for that matter) are known to have indoor 'elections' for the ruling elite.

It's not like we can let the workers, talents and drones of our bases vote for any of us.

	23-03-2005 21:26									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Playing one a day means every elected director needs to give orders every day, which I can't see happening.

Not-so-active governors could always give orders for a few turns ahead, and make them more general so the turnplayer has some leeway in case something unexpected happens.

Personally I like the idea of a turn a day no matter what happens (unless there's an extreme circumstance of course). That way the game will continue even if there's a (hopefully temporary) lack of activity. (If the lack of activity isn't temporary, this won't work of course) IIRC, weren't in ACDG1 turnchats cancelled once or twice because no one was present?

	23-03-2005 23:14									#97
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Yes, they were. However having one once per day means the turnplayer needs to be present every day at a set time. It shortens the list significantly of people who are able to be the turnplayer.

	23-03-2005 23:15									#98
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Plus it means we don't have turnchats. At least not meaningful ones, where most of the directors are present. To have that, when activity drops especially, we'd need to only have turnchats once a week, at a time people can set aside. Being cancelled once or twice is better than not having them at all, IMHO.

	25-03-2005 04:28									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Because pretending we live on another PLANET where every citizen has a direct say in every level of government is just *so* realistic.... Hint: Its about fun, not realism

RPing is fun, and I find RPing very strange when it's contradictory. I'm just asking for consistency, if we're running Police State, as we should with the Hive, IMHO, then having elections is contradictory. Fun needs some basis in reality, to me.

Why is playing as the Hive more fun?

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Who cares if we're being contradictory (Running police state while having elections, running free market while controlling the economy, running green while building boreholes everywhere) as long as its fun - and the Hive has a lot of roleplay potential, far more than Peacekeepers (though they aren't bad) and far far ahead of any faction in this demogame. We dont need to run strict Democracy-Planned-Knowledge-Cybernetic just to fit "real life" unless we think it'll be *fun*.

Not at all, however if we're playing a 'democracy' game, and voting on things, running Police State seems a little contradictory to me, and not exactly fun. We can run whatever SE settings we want, but I'd want to RP towards that too, and elections are part of what makes a DG fun - playing as a team.

The Hive doesn't have more RP, and what's more, if the RP is blatantly unbelieveable, it stops being fun. If someone RPs that they nuke the base and kill everyone, it isn't fun. Neither is it fun if someone declares that they've found a passage back to Earth and the games over. RPing needs to fit the game, and game events, at least to some extent. I for one can't RP when I can't imagine how it would be, and I can't imagine the Hive having open elections and referendums on issues.

	25-03-2005 07:38									#100
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We could be corrupt PKs that are working for "world peace". We could be maniacal scientists that wantonly commit atrocities "in the name of science". We could be a bunch of cold logical types that destroy all 'emotional and fundamentalist' Hawking & **** the creationists. We could run a police state with an obession on being at harmony with planet and destroy all poluteers. We could be Capitalists that stamp out all factions that force trade on other factions and attack factions that argue against extravegence. We could be Fundy Capitalists with an emphasis on military and acting in God's name (*cough* Bush *cough*).

So don't settle on the Hive just yet.

	25-03-2005 09:19									#101
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The University and Morgan will be too easy to play against the AI. It might be fun to play the Pirates against a beefed up AI. We could use the old run and hide tactic, assuming survival becomes an issue against a heavily tweaked AI. This is pretty much what pirates have always done in real life anyway.

	25-03-2005 11:04									#102
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I think that people get worn out playing the game and thus don't roleplay so much. I think our factions have roleplay value, it's just that the game uses up to much...

	25-03-2005 16:58									#103
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Frankly, screw roleplaying, outside of our usual political parties and the like. Instead of fighting inside an ideology, let's fight amongst the ideologies, without actually being a bunch of actual seperate factions.

Would the Uni or Morgan be too easy against the AI? Given the fact that this forum leans way too far towards socialism, I doubt we're going to be seeing sub-2200 victories like a few of us can manage against the AI on our own (Transcend, Huge Map), so what's the problem? That the game might be a bit shorter than usual? No problems here with that. Better it not drag on for too long, given how hard it is to attract people to a game in progress.

It's not like the AI won't be beefed up either, is it? I'm sure our creator can come up with something especially evil for us.

	25-03-2005 17:11									#104
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I'll play Uni or Morgan. Actually, almost any faction will due. I was just thinking that it might be fun to play a less well know and less well loved faction like the Pirates for a change. IMHO, it would lead to a completely different type of game then for most other factions.

	25-03-2005 18:21									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar I'm not opposed to the peacekeepers or most other factions, but from the perspective of roleplaying this game has been a disaster. I can personally confirm that at least half the game isn't roleplaying, can confirm through sources that 3/4 are not, and I highly doubt the remaining really are.

How do you know that, you see only 1 of the 5 forums. While yes, roleplaying is light, that's obviously because we have teams, and such small teams. SP DG = more roleplaying. What faction we are won't really affect that much. You can roleplay a lot as the PKs.

quote: Originally posted by Archaic Frankly, screw roleplaying, outside of our usual political parties and the like. Instead of fighting inside an ideology, let's fight amongst the ideologies, without actually being a bunch of actual seperate factions.

Welcome back Archaic!

Personally, I feel the PKs give the most blank slate for us to fight over ideology.

quote: Originally posted by Archaic Would the Uni or Morgan be too easy against the AI? Given the fact that this forum leans way too far towards socialism, I doubt we're going to be seeing sub-2200 victories like a few of us can manage against the AI on our own (Transcend, Huge Map), so what's the problem? That the game might be a bit shorter than usual? No problems here with that. Better it not drag on for too long, given how hard it is to attract people to a game in progress.

I wouldn't say too easy, I just think Morgan means we can't have ideological discussions about Green and Planned, which were the main party lines in the last game, as those options are taken out. Uni I'm fine with though

	26-03-2005 03:53									#106
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Can't we just edit the alpha.txt to take out any restrictions on the factions we want? We can mod the cost of planes, choppers and other stuff while we are at it.

Heck, we could play as two permipacted factions and everyone can share the same forum. The extremists can be in different factions, so they can implement different social/economic policies. People can switch membership between the factions, to be determined by the factions.

All truly major policy decisions will be handled by a 'body' drawn from both factions.

quote: Would the Uni or Morgan be too easy against the AI? Given the fact that this forum leans way too far towards socialism,

Yes! Popbooming is worth going to socialism for briefly, but I want a capitalist faction with a buying and selling market for various items... The other faction can be something else, heck even the Hive would do...

Ex: Morgan and Gaian joint conference on the freshly acquired territories:

Gaian: Yes, we can plant lots of forrest in these empty fields.
Morgan: I was thinking of boreholes and condensors...
Gaian: If we...
Morgan: *rolls eyes* fine, we'll stick in tree farms and centauri preserves, but it'll be paid for by your commerce... It would be better for you to hive empath hunters to get goodies. Hmm... I could go for some roast sealurk about now.
Gaian: If it weren't for us, there wouldn't be a piece of land by now...
Morgan: Hey, look who's leeching off our scientists?!?! As I recall, MORGAN researchers developed centauri preserves.

	26-03-2005 04:17									#107
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I think what has happened is that the factions have reduced to the gamers now. Yet I see faction members posting here and there elsewhere.

I envy the production of those faction newsletters and I am pleased that Sparta, Gaia and Morgan still strive to do so.

D order notices from HMG prevent Data Angels publishing accounts of current activities.

	26-03-2005 04:28									#108
	How About Multi-Faction OCC Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

We could try a multifaction One City Challenge.

This would limit our ability to exploit the AI.

OCC's can be challenging.



Mead

	26-03-2005 05:00									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar In any nation you are going to find those who agree and disagree with the poliies or founding ideals of that nation.

Yes, but as I said, the *main* discussions on policy was about economic system, something that is mute when playing a faction fighting for worldwide and rampant capitalism.

	26-03-2005 05:06									#110
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If we’re going to do a single-faction democracy game then it would be crucial to pick a faction that permit the most debate on social, political, and economic issues. I think that rather than playing a preexisting faction we ought to create a new faction using the editor with no bonuses or penalties or SE choice restrictions. This will permit the players themselves to shape the politics of the faction.

	26-03-2005 05:34									#111
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I like it! Maybe even have the ability to alter the faction as we specialise somewhat? Such as, if we focus on production for a time, we get a +1 industry but a -1 planet (for the damage) and a -1 research (for neglecting science), or somesuch.

	26-03-2005 06:00									#112
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I'm on Tassadars side. I think playing as a Gaian Empath or as the High Lord of the Gaian Council, as a Master of the Knights Order of St.-John, as the Air Marshall of the Spartan Federation, or as a sea merchant within the Nautilus Pirates has more roleplay potential than playing as some party member in some blank faction without any background.

With a blank faction it seems to me the only thing you can discuss or roleplay around is what is the most efficient gameplay. With a few already given basics, you could start discussing about whether pissing in the fungus is damaging for Planetary harmony, or instead fertilizing the ground around the xenoflora, to just give an example for the Gaians.

	26-03-2005 08:12									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar please no

Why?


Mead

	26-03-2005 08:49									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Multifaction Games = More of the same inactivity. ("MotSI") Multfaction Games + OCC = MotSI - 90% of Players

Okay, perhaps. I know you are sensitive to inactivity. Perhaps multifaction games contribute to more inactivity.


How about a single faction OCC then. This still limits our ability to exploit the AI as much as we usually do. Also, the turns will go much faster. Things will happen much quicker. There is some potential that we could often be on the point of extinction (which should keep interest up) and the game will not be over until we are exteminated or we win (transcedence probable win)


Mead

	26-03-2005 10:32									#115
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Please no. OCC's are dull, dull, DULL! The whole game turns into constructing crawler farms. Where's the fun in that?

I do think there's one important thing we have to consider for an SP DG however. Electing an official elects them for their policies. There's no point to elections if they're just going to act as the pollmasters for every little issue. They need to be able to make the decisions.

	26-03-2005 17:48									#116
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True, though I think some decisions still need a referendum. Changing an SE setting is something no one person would decide in a real democracy. Personally I'd just rather remove the old rules about postingboth sides in the OP. I think you can poll for what you like, in whatever way you like,a nd can interpret it yourself. Obv. lower down decisions, all day to day stuff, would be done without polls - such as unit orders, build queues, etc.

What tech to research (or slider changes if Blind Research), SE settings and the like are too important to change without referendums, though maybe SE sliders can be, as sometimes a decision needs to be made during turnchat.

	26-03-2005 17:58									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac I'm on Tassadars side. I think playing as a Gaian Empath or as the High Lord of the Gaian Council, as a Master of the Knights Order of St.-John, as the Air Marshall of the Spartan Federation, or as a sea merchant within the Nautilus Pirates has more roleplay potential than playing as some party member in some blank faction without any background.

Really? I'd have thought playing as Member of Parliament for XXXX, or Leader of the Opposition, or Chief Court Justice, etc. would have just as much roleplaying potential. It just depends what you find interesting. Personally, I'd find the Pirates pretty boring to RP, it's all talk like a Pirate, drink a lot of rum and be a mercenary. Gaian's I would, but cutting out the whole discussion on economic system - the biggest sources of RPing and argument in ACDG1 - would be foolish, IMHO. That's why I really wouldn't want to play as Gaia, Morgan or the Drones, and if you'd consider the Hive Communist, that's another reason not to choose them.

I think a blank faction, or a faction that means we can still debate about the keys issues like the economic system and what we value while not contradicting ourselves.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac With a blank faction it seems to me the only thing you can discuss or roleplay around is what is the most efficient gameplay. With a few already given basics, you could start discussing about whether pissing in the fungus is damaging for Planetary harmony, or instead fertilizing the ground around the xenoflora, to just give an example for the Gaians.

We're not saying be completely blank, we're saying a faction where we decide the ethos. We can debate everything, and what we accept, becomes our ethos. So we can discuss the effect of everything in an RP way, the fungus, the economics, being a captain of the military, etc. just that we have a blank state to start with. You're not limited to discussing or RPing efficient gameplay at all, as you wouldn't with any faction. Indeed, being able to discuss anything means you would be less limited than any faction where something is taken for granted in playing them.

If we're going to do an SP DG, we should poll at some point for faction choice.

	27-03-2005 17:47									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue True, though I think some decisions still need a referendum. Changing an SE setting is something no one person would decide in a real democracy.

Incorrect. No one person would decide it in a parlimentary democracy. The system we use in this game is a council democracy. In that, while the leader might be able to veto decisions on occasion, depending on if the council is a group of equals, or has a designated leader, the power really does rest in only one person, the person appointed to the position responsible for those decisions.

	27-03-2005 18:07									#119
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No, in a council democracy, if there is a large difference, like changing the political system they use, or altering their constitution, it would be voted on by the council, not decided by one person. The leader of the council would not allow one council member to declare a police state, for example.

	27-03-2005 19:35									#120
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Frankly, I'm in favour of every involved participant having his/her own base to manage and forward instructions to the turnplayer. And the faction leader (turnplayer) has to follow those instruction literally to the letter, according to the political system our team is in. Meaning we should decide on 3 separate sets of rules in which the power of the turnplayer is defined. I gather in Police State and Fundamentalism the turn players' freedom of act would be a lot more.