16-03-2005 22:36									#1
	Horde Training Camp Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It has been mentioned several times that members of the Horde are using this game and our actions to assist them in their game play

This is good value, and I truely believe that in the discussions that take place many lessons are learnt by all...

Amd I am honoured that we have amongst us some very talented players indeed

So to get things going, and get our skills up, this here training camp is now operational.

The following I have taken from the Civ III Strategy thread... I have cut some guff from the beginning, I am not saying I agree with it all, but it was too good to pass up for the opening post...

Here is hoping we, the Horde all benefit from the questions and answers that flow through this thread

so play hard and party harder

quote: Originally posted by QuestGAV Mahatma Gav and the Holy Buddhist Spaceship Tips: City Placement -City squares will normally have 2 food and 1 production regardless of the square underneath. Food and shield bonuses are ignored. Commerce bonuses are applied as will as bonuses from Civ traits. -Defensive bonuses from city placements still apply, so founding cities on a hill can be helpful in that respect. -It is almost always beneficial to build your cities in a CxxC pattern very close together. Your cities grow more quickly and use your land more efficiently, allowing you to grab more land in total. Workers -Build more workers! And then build some more. You want at least 2 workers per city. -Any time a city is working unimproved tiles, build more workers. -Any time a settler/unit has to pass through unroaded tiles, build more workers. REXing Tips: -If you find a spot that can generate +5 food and 7.5 shields, you can create a 4 turn settler pump that greatly increases your ability to out-expand the AI. Trade -Become the global tech broker early -Take tech for tech when it's available and their gold as well -As economies grow, get what you can from them in terms of gold per turn (GPT) deals. You get richer, they get poorer. -Check trade possibilities every turn. You never know when they've researched a new tech (or traded for one from another AI you couldn't get it from yet) or if they have a Worker in their capital to buy. Combat -Have clear goals when you start a war and make sure the forces you are devoting are suitable for it. If you do better than expected, feel free to take it further or contract your plans if you hit a stumbling block. -Mobile armies tend to be easier use - make use of their extra speed to keep them alive -If a mobile force isn't an option, consider creating a SOD (Stack of Death) with strong foot soldiers backed by strong defenders and Catapult-type unit. Bombarding will help you minimize your losses for a more efficient offensive. -"Pruning" the AI by taking a few cities and maybe a resource or two from them early on in the game can make them a much easier target later on. Pruning all your neighbors a bit in the ancient age sets you up to be dominant in the Middle Ages. Happiness -In the early game the luxury slider can be very efficient when losing even a single laborer hurts. -Don't always create entertainers, sometimes you can get away with making a Tax Collector or Scientist instead. Corruption -Having your cities placed more closely together mitigates corruption. Goody Huts -A Goody Hut can only give you a Settler if you have none currently on the map or in production. If you are Expansionist and are popping a goody hut, switch your cities off of settler production first. Just don't forget to switch them back! Traits -Expansionist ---Scouts can pop goody huts with no fear of spawning barbarians, this can lead to a significant early tech lead. ---The trait's advantages peter out quickly so maximise them early on. -Seafaring --Helps grab the early tech lead --Build your first curragh very early! --AI does not understand this trait Basic rules of thumb for worker management: Mine all grasslands in despotism, unless they have a bonus food tile. Sugar is the only bonus food tile not worth irrigating. Plains should generally be irrigated, but there are exceptions (such as a city blessed with Flood Plains as well) Stacking workers can be efficient, but have Workers make roads individually. One full turn is wasted per unit moving into the non-roaded tile. This waste adds up. Forests are just as good as mountains until you're out of Despotism. Chopping forests early can significantly speed up production of early improvements.

	18-03-2005 00:18									#2
	Got spare money?

In reguards to a reply I posted in the city planning thread, what is a common strategy dealing w/ building wonders. I myself assume that Sun Tzu's Art of War is quite beneficial for militaristic purposes and in re-gaining money not need to spend in support of existing barracks. I would also assume that The Great Wall would be benefical not only in a defensive strategy, but also a back up defense system when in a Militaristic strategy. I would like to hear thoughts on these and any other strategum on wonder building in demo games

	20-03-2005 16:54									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Regarding wonders, on this map Leonardo's Workshop, Statue of Zeus and Knights Templar are just about all wonders we need. Sun Tzu's is nice to have, but we'll probably have barracks up by then.

	28-03-2005 12:14									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

At the request of our esteemed Guardian of the Sacred Knowledge, I am posting a few pointers for fellow horde enthusiasts.

Lesson 1: First of all, much of our current territory lies in plains. Although getting sufficient food from plains can be somewhat tedious at first, plains are a civ's best friend. This is especially true (ironically) in the Ancient Age.

In a Despotic Government (the one everyone starts in, incidentally) any of the three productions that is >2 gets a -1 penalty. If you irrigate grass...you get 3 food. If you are in a despotic government, that immediately gets reduced back to 2 food (thus, the AI makes all the wrong choices at the beginning of the game, as it tends to irrigate grass and mine plains).

Lesson 2: Now...if you look at our starting territory (see picture) you will notice that we have a few grasslands (already giving 2 food) and lots of plains (giving one food and one shield until irrigated). The reason I mention this is: in despotism plains are your best friend! While others (if in grass) are struggling to build mines (6 worker turns) you are irrigating (4 worker turns). Even better for us...we have rivers. Rivers provide one gold in every worked square. If you build a road (roads are for cash, that they move your troops is bonus, guys!) you get another gold. Since we come to the magic number of 2 again...Despotism has no drawbacks for this either.

Next: notice the cow near our beloved capital. That began by giving us two shields and 3 food (but...we lost one food due to despotism). When we irrigated that, we got one more food, so even in despotism, we get 3 net food once it is irrigated.

Lesson 3: Why did we put our capital on a hill? Although it does give a 50% defensive bonus, that is actually a poor reason for putting a capital there. If you have to use the defensive bonus of your capital square, you are in really deep trouble anyways. We put it on the hill because food, in the early game, is everything. Hills can not be irrigated, so the most food they give (unless they have wine or sugar) is 1. Since each population needs two food, 1 is BAD. However, the game automatically gives the center square two food and one shield. Thus we took a hill and made it produce an extra food. If we had mined the hill (after some 12 turns) we could raise it's production to 3 shields, but then the despotic penalty would reduce that to 2 shields. If we want 1 food and 2 shields, we need only mine a plains tile and we have it for 1/2 the worker time.

Lesson 4: defensive terrain. We built our cities such that the rivers face out towards our expected enemies...each river gives +25% to the defender. In addition, the road systems are purposely connecting parallel to the rivers. This is because you don't get bridges until the Middle Ages (with the Engineering tech), so roads across rivers don't give the movement bonus. We will soon (as of this writing) be building a city on the hill with iron. The capital will connect directly to that city with no intervening rivers...thus a perfect defensibility for that city. We can keep Military Police (MP's) in the capital and if some bad guys show up at the iron city, we send out the MP's as additional military force. These units will gain the full benefit of the road system.

From Ta-Tu to Bokhara, the same is true...since the first 2/3 of a mp would be used w/o crossing river, the infantry from Ta-Tu can reach Bokhara in 1 turn. Note that the reverse is NOT true. Infantry from Bokhara (heading to Ta-Tu) would move only 1 square (in the #7, i.e. northeast, direction) since they would immediately cross the river and use up their full movement. Thus, it was by some luck and some good deduction (we saw that we were generally in the northern region) that we placed Ta-Tu in a perfect place to help Bokhara and that Ta-Tu is much less likely to need similar help. [Confused? Well...if someone were to attack us, they would be much more likely to come directly from their own territory than from some round-about route. Since there is no one north of us, Bokhara is more likely to be attacked than Ta-Tu. Ta-Tu can easily support Bokhara (in a pinch), but is sort of left alone concerning receiving any support itself.]

Lesson 5: stupid worker uses. Again look at Ta-Tu. It has sugar right next to it (and next to a river). Why not make a road to that sugar? Well...again, it has to do with the despotism penalty. Sugar gives a bonus of 1 food and 1 gold. this brings the tile to a total of 2 food (one for plains, one for sugar), one shield (due to plains), and 2 gold (one for sugar, one for river). The only possible benefit we could obtain from that tile by worker action is placing a mine on it (thus giving one extra shield). Sugar is a bonus resource, so it will not make anybody happier and will not allow the production of anything to hook the tile up to our road network. The extra shield might be nice to have later on (and we will certainly come to doing something with that tile sooner or later unless we destroy all of our opponents first ) but early in the game, a sugar cane on plains next to a river is just about as perfect a tile as we can make it, so we are not wasting time improving that tile.

Finally: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=38631 this is a link to a very handy (and easy to use) research and combat odds calculator. It is in a zipped file, but once you open it, the program is really good for determining how much a tech will cost and what the odds are concerning individual combats.

Attachment: 3000 interior.jpg
This has been downloaded 46 time(s).

Last edited by Rcoutme2 on 28-03-2005 at 12:27

	16-04-2005 12:15									#5
	Remove this text

Lesson 6. More worker woes

When we build a road on flat land (currently), it takes 3 worker turns to complete. If a single worker is being used, no problem. What if 3 workers are used? Still no problem. What if 2 workers are used? Problem!

The game mechanics make it that you will lose one worker turn since both workers finish their turn building that last 1 turn. In short, you will use 4 worker turns where 3 would suffice. How do we prevent this? By a semi-sneaky method.

Instead of telling the worker to build a road...tell the worker to build a road to... If you have done this before the worker reaches the objective tile, then you are all set (assuming that we are using two workers, remember). What if the workers are on the tile...and just finished irrigating? You can still tell the workers to build a road to... The trick is to know what you plan to do with the worker next. The worker who was not needed for the turn-2 road construction will move as far as he can towards the new road objective tile.

You need not build a road on the new tile...you can click on the worker on the turn it moved. The game will tell you that the worker already took his turn (if his movement is finished) and then he will not be building a road the next turn. NOTE: this is only needed if you are sending him to an unroaded tile.

The alternate method is to tell the workers to build roads to an already-roaded tile...the worker will move to that tile (presumably one right next to the tile you are working on) and then will have up to 2 mp left on the road (as the first will already have been used).

	17-04-2005 15:26									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

thank you for these lessons Rob. Glad to have you on board old chap

	18-04-2005 16:19									#7
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Victorious Life through education and understanding

	26-04-2005 08:18									#8
	Just what should you do with those 3 movement-point, 0 combat Great Leaders? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Lesson 7. Great leaders

Many Civ III players know about great leaders. Militaristic nations have a higher-than-normal chance to receive a great leader when winning combat with an elite unit. These units have multiple functions. However, what some Civ III players forget is that there are two kinds of great leaders in C3C--and they have DIFFERENT functions!

I am writing only about C3C (not the previous versions) as that is what is new about great leaders. The first thing you need to know about great leaders is that they come in two varieties.

Scientific Great Leaders (SGL's) come to nations in a 1 in 16 chance each time they are the first to research a particular technology; provided that they are also the first to obtain that technology. All Scientific nations have a 1 in 12 chance, due to the scientific trait. Now, some of you may be asking, "What the heck does he mean '...provided that...technology'?" Well, first of all, nations start with some techs, so the first person to research Pottery (for example) will not have any chance at a SGL unless no nation started with pottery AND provided the following has not occurred. Nations can obtain Ancient Age technologies through goodie huts. You will not (at least I am 99% sure of this) get a chance for a SGL by receiving a tech through a goodie hut. Meanwhile, if you do get a tech through a goodie hut before anyone else has obtained that tech (i.e. you are the first to get it), then nobody has a chance to get an SGL for that particular tech.

Military Great Leaders (MGL's) come to nations on a 1 in 16 chance each time a nation attacks with an elite unit (that has not already given a MGL in that iteration) and wins a battle. The chance is reduced to 1 in 32 for defending units. All Militaristic civilizations have their chance increased to 1 in 12 (similar to Scientific civs and SGL's). If a nation has built the small wonder Heroic Epic, the chance is further increased by 1 in 4 (thus 1 in 12 for non-militaristic nations, 1 in 8 for militaristic ones).

Now...just what should we do with those Great Leaders? Well...the question used to be one of style and priorities (when there were only MGL's), but that all changed with the introduction of SGL's. If you are the first to research a technology and are blessed with a SGL, build a Great Wonder with him. It is basically as plain as that. The only other option (short of using him as a very fast scout) is to increase scientific research by 50% (I think) for the next 20 turns--and that is usually a very poor option, especially since you can not research ANY tech faster than 4 turns anyways.

What about MGL's? Well...they are now much, much weaker for production than they used to be. An MGL can no longer rush a Great Wonder. They can rush any local building, including Small Wonders and Palaces, but they can not rush any Great Wonders. Thus: the first MGL you get should almost always be changed into an army. A successful battle with an army enables both the Heroic Epic and the Military Academy. Since both of those are Small Wonders, subsequent MGL's can (although don't have to) be used to rush their production. After your first army, the use of MGL's becomes a bit more challenging--do you need that Forbidden Palace really soon? Have you already built the Heroic Epic? Do you really want to build an army with the current units available? These can be debated 'ad nauseum' after the first MGL has created an army that has won a combat. The first MGL must be used to create an army.

One more tidbit of information on GL's: you can have >1 SGL at a time, but you can only have 1 MGL at a time, so make your decision about the MGL as soon as possible (so that the next time an elite unit wins a combat, you have a chance for another MGL).

Last edited by Rcoutme2 on 26-04-2005 at 11:03

	26-04-2005 08:38									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Lesson 8: Little-known factoids (helping to clarify Lesson 7)

Armies: Armies in C3C are much more powerful than their two predecessors.
1. They increase the movement (of the slowest unit in the army) by one.
2. They have Zone of Control (a % chance to attack any enemy that moves from 1 square next to them to another one next to them).
3. They heal hp's much faster than normal units (basically they heal as fast as 3 units would--provided your army has 3 units in it).
4. They appear to heal in enemy territory--although I am not sure of that.
5. They automatically have blitz capability, thus they can attack multiple times in one turn.
6. The blitz capability makes it fairly easy to get the first unit to promote (up to maximum of elite--I have never seen a MGL created through the combat of an army).
7. Armies are stuck with the units you load into them. If you put 3 warriors into the army, they can never be removed and they can never be upgraded.

Other points about armies. When you build the Military Academy, you not only can build armies (in that city) as normal units, you also get +50% to the attack strength (I believe you do not get defensive bonus). If/When you build the Pentagon, you get an additional +50% to your attack, thus doubling the attack strength if you have both the Pentagon and the Military Academy.

The Pentagon: You do not need the Military Academy to build the Pentagon. You do not need Military Tradition (the tech) to build the Pentagon. You simply need to be fielding 3 armies. The Pentagon allows you to put 4 units into each army and, as I mentioned above, adds +50% to the attack strength. What is significant is that, if you get 3 MGL's and make armies out of each of them (assuming that you have sufficient cities to do this) you can then begin construction on the Pentagon. This could happen during the Ancient Age. The only requirement for building the Pentagon is 3 armies--they don't even have to have been victorious in a battle!

Units that have produced MGL's: These units are usually marked with an asterisk (*) and the game always offers to let you name them. This is a very good idea, because, although that unit is elite, it will not give another chance for a MGL--RIGHT? Wrong. If the unit is upgraded (and subsequently it will be a veteran since all elite units that are upgraded become vets) and then becomes elite again, it can now produce another MGL. The only limit to the MGL's that a unit can make is the quantity of iterations the unit can pass through.

Thus: A spearman could create a MGL. After being upgraded to pikeman, it could create another MGL. When upgraded to musketman, it can make its third MGL. Next, it can make its 4th at rifleman, 5th at infantry and 6th at mechanized infantry. It is very unlikely than any spearman will make a MGL since it is usually used defensively, but all of these iterations are actually possible .

Lesson 9: Goodie Huts.

Goodie Huts have percentage chances to give really nice and really nasty items. Expansionist civilizations can not get barbarian attackers coming from any goodie hut that they pop. But just what are the possibilities?

1. Nothing
2. Money
3. An ancient age technology (if you have all AA techs, this is changed to nothing, iirc)
4. A settler
5. A city (I have only ever seen expansionist nations get a city, btw)
6. A warrior
7. A free map of some of the nearby area.
8. (for non-expansionist nations) 3 barbarian warriors who are hostile. The quantity is reduced if the random square upon which the barbarians would go is occupied or forbidden.

For those who want even more information, please go to the CFC site and read Oystein's article (which happens to include %'s based on difficulty level) found here: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_goodyhuts.shtml

Last edited by Rcoutme2 on 26-04-2005 at 08:51

	26-04-2005 09:11									#10
	Got spare money?

thank you Rob, bloody awesome mate

	26-04-2005 14:21									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Paddy, why is your status "prince"?


Further comments about armies and healing:
A 3-unit army heals 4 points per turn when in neutral or friendly territory and 3 points per turn when inside enemy borders(that is, nations you are at war with). I don't know how battlefield medicine affects armies.
They heal 8 points per turns in cities without barrack. I'm not sure if they heal 16hp only or always get full strength in cities with barracks but *normal* units only get 4hp so I suspect 16hp is the case.

You can only get a MGL when you don't have leaders already(any type), SGL don't have that restriction. In fact, I once got two SGLs in *one* turn

Also worth mentioning, when deciding what to do with you Nth MGL (*ALWAYS* build an army with the first) is that you need 4 cities to support each army.

	26-04-2005 14:43									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Bongo, Thank you for this extra info

I be a happy Prince
it be a better title for me than Deity (and beyond....)
Ming had a chat with Mark and Dan, and got me sorted. They be good chaps...

	08-06-2005 16:47									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by bongo Ljube, how do you you calculate army strength? I've read some details on how the "weak/average/strong" is calculated but I'd like to see how you do it.

I do a very coarse calculation which in many cases is remarkably accurate:

(Number of swords)*3/4 = Number of immortals

	08-06-2005 17:17									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

After some digging I found the thread which discussed army strength in detail.


http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...206#post2219206
It's a post by BigFurryMonster which sums it up nicely:

Unit Strength =
(Hitpoints / 3) *
(0.6 * Attack Value + 0.4 * Defense Value + Bombard Strength Value / 15) *
(1.01 if UU and CivSpecificAbilitiesOn)

Army Strength =
Sum (Unit Strengths) * (Factor depending on ArmySupportCost)

Units with no hitpoints (e.g. Catapults) are assumed to have 3 hitpoints for this calculation.


No effect have:
"Naval" ability
Rate of Fire Value
Movement Value
Bombard Range Value

To my knowledge the "unitupkeepfactor" is still unknown, also worth noting is that the defence value takes into account terrain, improvements, cities and buildings. If your entire army was pikes, moving them from plains into a mountain fort would potentially double your army strength.

	08-06-2005 17:30									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

very interesting

could get some good sums for our first army

	09-06-2005 02:06									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Very interesting indeed. And very complicated too. I say let's stick to my simplified formula. I bet it's accurate enough.

	06-07-2005 14:28									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

@Ljube, you asked about army-bonuses right?

Didn't find the exact formula but I found a spreadsheet with enough data to reconstruct it...


The Attack strength of an army is the average attack strength + total attack strength divide by 6

For 3 unit armies this equals a 50% bonus.

With 4 unit armies the bonus will be 66% (2/3). you need the Pentagon to add a 4th unit

The military Academy strengthen armies further:
Average attack strength + total attack strength divide by 4

Which gives a 66% bonus to 3 unit armies and a hefty 100% bonus to 4 unit armies.


All percentages are calculated with same-type units inside the army. Normally that 4th unit will be of a more modern type which mess up calculations slightly. Defence values are calulated the same way.

The Military Academy is a small wonder and becomes available with Military Tradition. Apart from said bonus, it also makes construction of armies possible in the city it is built.

The Pentagon can be built by any civ that has at least 3(4?) armies in the field already. It allows armies to have4 units inside.

	06-07-2005 14:55									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Did some simulations on the effect of armies.

The Defender: Veteran Musketmen fortified inside a walled hill town. Defence value=9

Attacker 1: 18hp AC army, attack strength=4.5
Wins 95.2% Retreats 1.7% Lose 3.2%

Attacker 2:15hp Keshik army, attack strength=6
Wins 96.6% Retreats 1.3% Lose 2.2%


On a particular hard target the difference is very small. Place the Musket on flatland(10% defence bonus) and the difference becomes even smaller as the success rates of the armies increase. (99.99% for the Keshiks and 99.5% for the ACs)

	07-07-2005 15:25									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This is all about army attack. What about army defence? Same thing?

	07-07-2005 19:36									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The same bonus applies to defence. I am not sur about how other defence bonuses add up though.

Another thing I am not sure of is rounding, do the AC-army have 4(trunced value), 4.5(real value) or 5(normal rounding) in attack strength?