19-03-2005 05:26									#1
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Some suggestions previously made:

Sink the brand new Hive flagship with the B-6 in MT. First look at Great Collective's unit support box to get an idea where the ship is heading.

Search and destroy the Morganic 2-3-4. We'll finish 4 B-4s next turn, so that ships would have to be very lucky to succesfully hide itself.

Move the crawler on (56.10) a tile SE to harvest minerals at the mine.

	19-03-2005 22:37									#2
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Any thoughts on arty units? (maybe in bases like MT and 2Nuts with adjacent fungus, where spore launchers - or enemy units - could lurk)

Fairly cheap at 20 mins

Attachment: arty.gif
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	19-03-2005 23:47									#3
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Artillery makes sense on the Hive border, and that is it. I think we can afford a couple.

As to the B4s, are all 4 too far to start attacking Morgan land units immediately?

	22-03-2005 22:22									#4
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No, they can all attack Terrapeso next turn. Why the wink btw? If there was a misunderstanding, I didn't mean to use all B-4s for hunting down that ship. With my first post I just wanted to make the start of a list what to do next turn, with sinking the Morganic ship being one of the many goals.

So what land targets do we want to attack with our air fleet?

	22-03-2005 22:33									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac No, they can all attack Terrapeso next turn. Why the wink btw?

Because I still find we should commit all our air units to damaging Morgan.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac So what land targets do we want to attack with our air fleet?

If we are still going to invade (I am in favor, as you know), then best defenders and after that - the most expensive units. Basically preparing to invade. If the invasion is to be called off, take out the most expensive targets and crawlers.

	23-03-2005 19:55									#6
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Site of the Citizens' Defense Force

While normally I hesitate in PBEMs to place more than one SP in a single base, it does make sense to site the CDF in Sparta Command:

• It's a no-minerals base, so we're not detracting from any other builds there (the 2 accumulated minerals will convert to energy credits, if I understand Maniac's other posts re: stockpiling energy)
  
• Both supercrawlers can get there next turn (versus Sector CraterSouth, the other no-minerals base, where they couldn't)
  
• It's our Headquarters, and we'll definitely protect it better than Morgan protected theirs

	23-03-2005 20:14									#7
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Build orders are needed in 2164 for the following bases (minerals)

• Santiago Citadel (8)
  
• Fort Superiority (27)
  
• Gythium Harbour (6)
  
• Sector Craterwest (9)
  
• Argos (3)
  
• Tegea Harbour (9, with the new crawler working the mine there)
  
• Fort Buster (8)
  
• Rio Grande (11)

Last edited by Googlie on 23-03-2005 at 20:21

	23-03-2005 21:22									#8
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[*]Fort Superiority (27)
Longstrider or Impact Rover for active defense (of us, Zak and Lal) or to join a second wave against Morgan. Or leave it at 2-turns Amphib Missile Rover production without rushes.

[*]Sector Craterwest (9)
Rec Tanks to make it (10)

[*]Tegea Harbour (9, with the new crawler working the mine there)
If indeed (9), then as Sector Craterwest it needs Rec Tanks.

Except if there is growth, we should try to stabilize some bases at optimal values of minerals, so they can keep building without rushes without losing too many minerals (preferably none). This should give us the ability to keep up with the Morgan cash machine.

quote: I'm assuming we don't have the luxury of time to throw up rec tanks in any of the better minerals bases (but maybe in the lesser ones, to boost minerals and food production there)

If we can stabilize them at useful numbers (preferably 10), then it would make sense. Those could then be left alone producing things, while rushing takes place in other bases.

	23-03-2005 21:30									#9
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quote: Site of the Citizens' Defense Force [...] So I'd vote for it being built at Sparta Command

quote: Any thoughts on arty units? (maybe in bases like MT and 2Nuts with adjacent fungus, where spore launchers - or enemy units - could lurk)

Unless we see huge stacks of tough units, i'd rather have extra B4 or F4 patrolling/fighting. Much more versatile unit at the same price.

	24-03-2005 21:31									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Any thoughts on arty units? (maybe in bases like MT and 2Nuts with adjacent fungus, where spore launchers - or enemy units - could lurk) Fairly cheap at 20 mins

Sounds great. I didn't know they cost as much as normal missile infantry.

Correction of an earlier statement: the B-4 built in Santiago Citadel can't reach Terrapeso next turn. So I guess the choice with which B-4 to sink the Morganic ship is easily made.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 If we are still going to invade (I am in favor, as you know), then best defenders and after that - the most expensive units. Basically preparing to invade. If the invasion is to be called off, take out the most expensive targets and crawlers.

Problem is our hardened B-4s are too weak to handle Morgan's best defences. In Vander Eudaimonics they have a plasma sentinel (3 armour) of veteran morale (+25%) in a base (+25%) covered by a sensor array (+25%), which for the record is just out of range of our aircraft - we can't destroy it. Attacking that unit - or other disclipined plasma units in bases - would most likely be suicide for our hardened B-4s. Even for our hardened B-6 taking on that veteran plasma sentinels would be fifty-fifty. So I'd like to stress it's important to build as many air units as possible in our aerospace bases (instead of normal bases), to get that much needed morale bonus!

quote: Originally posted by Googlie It's [SC1] a no-minerals base, so we're not detracting from any other builds there (the 2 accumulated minerals will convert to energy credits, if I understand Maniac's other posts re: stockpiling energy)

Ah no. The credits received by the stockpile energy bug are determined by the mineral production at the turn when you build the production item, not by how many minerals are forwarded. I used to think this mistake too a few years back, but I thought it was you who corrected me.

So in any case, we wouldn't get any free credits from building the CDF at Sparta Command (or one, if next turn we'd switch a SC1 forest worker to a mine, becoming empty after the supercrawler is cashed in).

So those 2 minerals currently in store in SC2 would be lost, as we'd have 302 in store after cashing in the crawlers, while we only need 300. And overhurried minerals are lost, as I too learnt from you in ACDG2.

For the record, two other bases where we could build the CDF are Santiago Citadel and Gythium Harbour. By building it in SC2 we'd lose one mineral to overhurrying, and we'd get more free credits from the stockpile energy bug compared to SC1. By building it in GH we'd lose nothing to overhurrying, but of course that base is more vulnerable for someone wanting to repeat what we did to Morgan Industries, if we're afraid of that.

But all in all, I'd say I've written a lot of text with the general conclusion it doesn't matter that much where we build it.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 [*]Fort Superiority (27) Longstrider or Impact Rover for active defense (of us, Zak and Lal) or to join a second wave against Morgan. Or leave it at 2-turns Amphib Missile Rover production without rushes.

What would you think of an Aerospace Complex there? Then we could build commando aircraft in Arcadia as well. We could hurry AerComplex production '65 with a crawler to speed things up.

quote: Except if there is growth, we should try to stabilize some bases at optimal values of minerals, so they can keep building without rushes without losing too many minerals (preferably none).

Due to the mineral carry-forward (does Civ3 have that btw? - I can't remember) losing minerals doesn't form a problem yet at the moment.

Regarding recycling tanks, while they are a good investment, I can think of a better one: a supply crawler!
Consider:
For 40 minerals you get one nut, one mine and one energy (which in our case is often lost due to inefficiency)
For 30 mins and some 12 terraforming turns (mine + road on rocky) you can get 4 minerals.
Which one do you prefer?

Even when the crawler is only harvesting a forest (2 mins) I'd personally still opt for it, as the crawler has some additional advantages over a recycling tanks:
a) It's a unit: in other words it's mobile & flexible, and it can move to wherever it's most needed at a certain time.
b) It's a walking mineral reserve. Unlike a rec tanks, we can cash it in for some project at its full mineral value whenever and wherever we deem fit.

I know I'm heavily in the minority though regarding recycling tanks.


Edit: Oh yeah, some other stuff.

Steppenwolfs (6~-2-2) : since we're moving itt to Minas Tirith, what will Hermes do? IIRC previous suggestion was to let Hermes pick up the Steppenwolfs, and let them attack Laborer's Throng.

We could use the new GH Mercury transport to ferry the missile infantry to MT. I guess that would give us enough units in place to garrison the base and hold off any Hive units in the next couple years. Therefore, how about making use of this opportunity to send the commando missile and impact infantry in MT to the nearest monolith for an upgrade to elite?

(In fact, after upgrading our scout patrols to police units, we'd have an overabundance of garrison units allowing us to move them freely around, and we could give many commando hoplites an upgrade to elite.)

	24-03-2005 22:23									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac So I'd like to stress it's important to build as many air units as possible in our aerospace bases (instead of normal bases), to get that much needed morale bonus!

That I did not think of. We are making air units in those bases at the moment, right?

quote: Originally posted by Maniac What would you think of an Aerospace Complex there? Then we could build commando aircraft in Arcadia as well. We could hurry AerComplex production '65 with a crawler to speed things up.

Definately worth it. With 3 bases concentrated on air units, we could start making other things elsewhere sooner.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Due to the mineral carry-forward (does Civ3 have that btw? - I can't remember) losing minerals doesn't form a problem yet at the moment.

Production does not carry over in Civ3. Sorry about that. You can disregard my Civ3 concepts.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Regarding recycling tanks, while they are a good investment, I can think of a better one: a supply crawler! Consider: For 40 minerals you get one nut, one mine and one energy (which in our case is often lost due to inefficiency) For 30 mins and some 12 terraforming turns (mine + road on rocky) you can get 4 minerals. Which one do you prefer?

Being a builder, I would personally take the balanced choice, evan if it is a bit static - Rec. Tanks. However, we are not exactly a builder faction, in which case Crawlers seem better for Sparta.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac I know I'm heavily in the minority though regarding recycling tanks.

That is a growing "minority".

quote: Originally posted by Maniac (In fact, after upgrading our scout patrols to police units, we'd have an overabundance of garrison units allowing us to move them freely around, and we could give many commando hoplites an upgrade to elite.)

Or, you can consider them cheap "filler" troops to go for Morgan. Could some of those not be used as "hulls", to be upgraded underway or even on (soon-to-be-former) Morgan soil?

	25-03-2005 17:02									#12
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I've opened the turn, and nothing dramatic has really happened that I can see. Some observations:

• Gaia is still blocking us.
  
• The B-4 was 50% damaged in the mindworm-attack, so that'll not be of great use to us right now.
  
• The Morgans have switched taxes to 70% credits and 30% labs. So they have no research but an income of 255!
  
• I can see two Hive impact speeders approaching MT
  
• Morgan has founded a new base "Morgan Construction" well inside the former Hive/Morgan neutral zone. There is a Hive rover in the vicinity, if we could entice them to declare war ...
  

With regards to Gaia, I suggest we attack them this turn. Their units are still stacked on the choke-point, so we may be able to take them all out. Also, our scout rover should follow the river and see if Gaia have a defender in their new base (and if we so if we can destroy it).

As a precursor to this, I suggest we should post the Debbie article in the general forum, along with an announcement that Major Snoddasmannen has been made the official ambassadeur to Gaia, or something like that They'll be terrified.

Oh, and we did get IntInt from the Angels (boy is my face red ) and Morgan doesn't have it.

	25-03-2005 19:17									#13
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Maniac - you're playing these next 2-3 turns, yes?

	25-03-2005 19:22									#14
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First question is:

What tech do we want to change to -I suggest Subatomics, so that we can then get silksteel - that aloows us to upgrade our defences to plasma while still keeping our prototype-crawler rush-retire design strategy intact

	25-03-2005 19:50									#15
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Riddle me this:

With Fundy, we are at -2 research (giving 50 ec's and a tech every 44 turns - yellow in the pic below)

Change to Police - 0 research (pink below) and our research rate drops out of sight (24 ec's and a tech every 399 turns)

Why? (I can see the -4 Economic Paralysis affecting our income, but does it also cripple research?)

Attachment: 2164-soc change.gif
This has been downloaded 31 time(s).

	25-03-2005 19:54									#16
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quote: Problem is our hardened B-4s are too weak to handle Morgan's best defences. In Vander Eudaimonics they have a plasma sentinel (3 armour) of veteran morale (+25%) in a base (+25%) covered by a sensor array (+25%), which for the record is just out of range of our aircraft - we can't destroy it. Attacking that unit - or other disclipined plasma units in bases - would most likely be suicide for our hardened B-4s. Even for our hardened B-6 taking on that veteran plasma sentinels would be fifty-fifty. So I'd like to stress it's important to build as many air units as possible in our aerospace bases (instead of normal bases), to get that much needed morale bonus!

I am not sure how exactly children creches affect morale.

If they add +1 then perhaps we can rush build them in AC bases for that elite upgrade.

	25-03-2005 20:20									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie (I can see the -4 Economic Paralysis affecting our income, but does it also cripple research?)

Simple answer: it does.

Economy is the raw cash you get, that is being split into Psych, Energy and Labs. We need to go Green, if we are to run Police State, or our income will be non-existent. We are not the Hive, you know.

	25-03-2005 20:20									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Maniac - you're playing these next 2-3 turns, yes?

Yep. I'm in Gent now, but I'll prepare to go home hereafter. I could start playing in some three or four hours I think.

	25-03-2005 20:24									#19
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quote: Originally posted by sentry33 I am not sure how exactly children creches affect morale. If they add +1 then perhaps we can rush build them in AC bases for that elite upgrade.

For us CCs suck morale-wise. See the Treatise on Morale, Chapter Nine for detailed information.

	25-03-2005 23:17									#20
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I guess we need to reach consensus on how to deal with the Gaians. Anybody object to an attack?

	25-03-2005 23:26									#21
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IIRC either Sentry or Vishniac was against, but everyone else in favour?

	25-03-2005 23:36									#22
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I say attack. My boys are ready.

	26-03-2005 03:17									#23
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I have no opinion regarding attacking Gaians

While its yet another enemy to battle, they are pacted with Morgan already. And as someone noticed before - better to force them to play our game (produce military) than let them grow unhindered.

I just wonder if we can handle 2 opponents at once. I can't find time to analyze dilligently our situation to judge this... Its up to rest of team

(Edited for spelling)

	26-03-2005 05:36									#24
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Diplomacy

• The Angels have given us Intellectual Integrity.

Combat Operations

• War declared on the Gaian Union! R-112 killed a worm and a spore launcher. The other two worms survived with 90% collateral damage though, along with the probe team which is also still alive. Ah well, easy killings next year, if the Hive won't deal with them that is. R-112 is 40% damaged, still commando.
  
• The new Gaian base Razorbeak Wood was still undefended! Our unity rover destroyed it, and we gained no less than one energy credit! How to proceed? Retreat north or southwest, disband the sensor array, follow the road south?...
  
  
• The Hivean 6-3-4 flagship has been sunk by our B-6 (which wasn't anywhere within range of Morganic territory).
  
• Two B-4s flying above Terrapeso, awaiting last confirmation what target to attack. Unfortunately there aren't any juicy targets in sight. The RG B-4 can only attack formers (despite there being a crawler on the same square). The SC3 B-4 has the choice between a former next to or a scout patrol in Morgan Vulcanology - the synthprobe in the base isn't chosen as first defender!
  
• The Morganic ship has moved southward according to the "Choke On This" support screen information. So it's possible our SC2 B-4 couldn't reach it. Still try and find it (with the risk of ending the turn in the middle of the ocean having accomplished nothing), or simply fly to SC3 for an assured target next year?
  
• The FB B-4 has a similar problem: lack of targets. Vander Eudaimonics is within range, but as mentioned earlier: that one has a veteran plasma defender. It could perhaps go hunting after the Morganic ship instead?

Economy & Production

• Energy sliders reset to 50-0-50.
  
• Fort Superiority set to train a trance Res-3 Garrison, with the intention of cashing in a crawler next year and then switch to the real intended production: an Aerospace Complex.
  
• Fort Buster set to construct a B-4.
  
• All other bases set to crawler production for now.
  
• Minas Tirithic production switched to missile artillery. We can still change next year though.

Crawlers

• Fungal Gin Freight (renamed the trancesynthmetalsupplyrover ) boards the Aarvak at Arcadia University. Question: how about rehoming the Aarvak to AU to give 2NS a much needed extra mineral?
  
• Now follows a boring list of other crawler movements - you've been warned:
  
• TH crawler on mine.
  
• FL crawler positioned closer to FS and starts harvesting minerals - you never know we want to cash it in one day.
  
• IH crawler goes harvesting forest a tile SW, making place for the new FS crawler which harvests nutrients - FS nutrient shortage finally solved!
  
• RG crawler moves a tile SE to mine.
  
• FB crawler moves back to the mineral mine.

Crypteia

• Crypteia operatives in Monitoring Station discover foreign presence.
  
• Crypteia department set up in Iaci Base.
  
• Where to move Disco Volante?

Army (skip this part - just a boring list of hoplite movements )

• All ten scout patrols upgraded to police forces - called them "Citizen Defence Force" for now.
  
• Rolling Thunder II settles in Minas Tirith for repairs.
  
• Steppenwolfs proceed further west.
  
• AU Citizen Defence Force switched place with Raouls Rangers (Spartan Kel).
  
• Fort Liberal hoplite visits monolith. Skanky's Sileni, which aren't needed in Tegea Harbour anymore, garrison FL in the meantime.
  
• Commando MSN hoplite moves south for an upgrade. The remaining police can garrison MSN on its own.
  
• Commando RG hoplite leaves for the same purpose, rehomes to FB en route.
  
• Commando FB hoplite departs for the standard field trip, and rehomes to SC4 en route.
  
• Commando SC4 hoplite - How do you mean, you know what I'm gonna say?
  
• The hardened hoplite in SC1 switches places with the commando hoplite in GH, so that next year...
  
• Commando hoplite in SC4 switches place with hardened hoplite in SC2.
  
• Hoplite in OA moves to VV to relieve the commando hoplite there for a holiday to the monolith.

Navy

• SCC Invincible sails further towards the Gaian-Hive narrows.
  
• SCC Iaci joins the SCC Heimdall in its fungal hideaway.
  
• How about moving our GeneralTacticus-Vladimorei-Njord flotilla gradually south to repair and so we can check for any incoming probes while at the same time harassing Morgan coast?

Air Force

• Argonite B-6 flies to Gagarin Memorial.
  
• MT B-4 explores the fungus a bit before landing on the Minas Tirith airstrip. We can expect a steady flow of Hivean units for breakfast in the coming years.
  
• Damaged B-4 in East Arcadia: I wanted to fly to (9.25) to see if there were any probes in sight on that eastern tip, and then land in Mendelev College with the two last remaining movement points. But a Fungal Tower prevented this. So the question now is: use the last two MPs to land, or to explore that tile anyway, but end the turn in mid-air?

Engineering Corps

• Forest expands near Fort Liberty.
  
• Tomcat-SC2 completes road near Sparta Command.
  
• Tomcat-OA1 completes road near Olympus Academy.
  
• Tomcat-SC1 helps build Tomcat-SCW3 a forest near Gythium Harbour.

Attachment: acdg3-sparta-2164mid2.zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

Last edited by Maniac on 26-03-2005 at 05:43

	26-03-2005 05:48									#25
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Open questions:

How to proceed with:

• the Unity rover in Gaia?
  
• our B-4s at the Morgan east coast?
  
• the new GH cruiser transport and probe taskforce? Try framing Morgan, or not, as it possibly might not work. We could of course go steal the map anyway while we're waiting for reinforcements, as I assume invading Morgan with one transport filled with three combat units and a probe or so just might be insufficient.
  
• Tomcats OA2 and VV?
  
• the missile rover outside MT?
  
• SNC Hermes?
  
• the damaged B-4 in East Arcadia?
  
• Aarvak?
  
• GT-Njord-Vladimorei flotilla?
  
• Disco Volante?
  
  
• Where to build the Citizen's Defence Force secret project?
  
• Shall we sell or give IntInt to the University? I assume the Angels are expecting to sell to the Peacekeepers?

	26-03-2005 07:40									#26
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Some general comments and opinions:

If our B-4's can't take out crawlers, how about destroying forests and mines? A former can be built easily, but a forest/mine takes a few turns to replicate

Can the Unity Rover do any esploring along the road the sensor is on (just don't finish the turn in a gaian base radius!!

I had intended the GH cruiser/trannie task force to load up the probe, the 2Nuts speeder on its way there, the missile attacker and perhaps the Unity rover that's there too (isn't that Captain Rynn's RT2). But a simple hit and run probe action is OK too (maybe we do need to get those Hive maps)

Can the northern flotilla do any damage to forests/mines this turn, or is it better to get them stacked and acting in unison?

Tha Aarvak was going to pick up our supercrawler from Arcadia and move it onto our mainland (where, presumably, we'd build our next SP

Why don't we sell Int Int to the PK's and to the Uni? (are we prohibited from onward trading it?)

I favour Sparta Command for the CDF

	26-03-2005 08:44									#27
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Tech change choices:

Cent Empathy - pretty useless (Green, Bioadaptive Resonance and Cent Meditation)
AST - needed for Silksteel Armor, Applied Relativity (and Supercollider SP)
Cyberethics - Planetary Network SP, and leads to PSA and Fusion
Adaptive Doctrine - marine detatchment, and leads to AMA

What to choose?

	26-03-2005 09:55									#28
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Great turn Maniac!

Hey I love the attack on the Gaians, poor things! They lose a base and their defensive stack in one turn.

Gotta love that Fungal Gin Freight

Here are some thoughts on the issues which have come up.

• Move the scout rover north to intercept the damaged Gaian units? The Gaians move before the Hive right?
  
• They have a sensor right on the old base site, so they'll see us for sure Googlie, but they won't be able to escape if we move our scout unit there.
  
• Beware of getting B-4's trapped in Morgania! I say we should keep that B-4 ready in SC3 to strike out units which move out to block our home path (they have lots of junk in Vander)
  
• Rush crawler at Vladi?
  
• What the heck are we building in Fort Soup? A 3-res defender?!
  
• Keep bombarding the invincible forest with the raid fleet? What are we going to do with these long term? They'll be needlejet fodder soon for sure.
  
• How about taking out the mine which the RG B-4 is flying over?
  

	26-03-2005 10:15									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Damaged B-4 in East Arcadia: I wanted to fly to (9.25) to see if there were any probes in sight on that eastern tip, and then land in Mendelev College with the two last remaining movement points. But a Fungal Tower prevented this. So the question now is: use the last two MPs to land, or to explore that tile anyway, but end the turn in mid-air?

That's real bad luck

I don't think the threat from the Angels is really severe enough to merit sacrificing a B-4 turn. But we can always let it hang around there, waiting for a reply from the Angels to the message we've proposed.

EDIT: One last thing before I stop spamming for this morning Shell the Gaian units with our Coastguard Cruiser. The probe team will get damaged and only get 1 mp, preventing them from spreading the units out. Our cruiser will still have enough MP's to attack a sea target next turn.

	26-03-2005 13:19									#30
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quote: The FB B-4 has a similar problem: lack of targets. Vander Eudaimonics is within range, but as mentioned earlier: that one has a veteran plasma defender. It could perhaps go hunting after the Morganic ship instead?

If we just place it over 36:14 (forest/energy square near Vander Eudaimoniacs), then Vander Eudaimoniacs will riot next turn (reduced psych) - immediately costing them 3 minerals and 13 ECs, as well as delaying production of whatever they are producing there by 1 turn.