22-03-2005 00:01									#1
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We now know there will be 19.

There are 13 that were in the original releases of Civ 1, 2, and 3:

England, France, Germany, Russia, Rome, Greece, Egypt, Zulu, Babylon, China, India, USA, Aztec

Japan and Persia were in 2 and 3.

Mongolia was in 1, 2, and ptw.

Spain was in 2 and ptw.

I think all of the above are in Civ4.

It sounds like there are at least two new ones, and I would say they are Ethiopia and Israel.

What do you think?

I just hope it isn't too difficult to add new ones ourselves, and that they themselves bring the total number higher than C3 + PtW + Conq. I'd want at least 40. I'd hope that "nonplayable" civs can be made playable, and that scenarios would have other civs in addition to the main game which can be ported into it.

	22-03-2005 04:00									#2
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Perhaps Iroquois or some other North American indigenes. It seems like an area which is lacking. Weren't they in Civ1 or 2?

	22-03-2005 04:16									#3
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I agree with Trifna that some Native American tribe will probably be in (after the Sioux and Iroquois, maybe now it's the Dakota's turn? )

And if Firaxis remember the Expansion Pack Civs poll I did a few years ago, they better include the Arabs as well

	22-03-2005 04:28									#4
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Maybe replace Israel with Iroquois, Sioux, Dakota, Cherokee, Navajo, Algonquian, Cree, or Inuit, then.

	22-03-2005 07:49									#5
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19 is less than we had in Conquests, true?

	22-03-2005 07:50									#6
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Not that it matters. Its not as if the civs will feel and play uniquely like the factions of SMAC.

Basically, they are all the same.

	22-03-2005 08:14									#7
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I think we had 16 in C3Vanilla, plus eight for Play the World, plus seven for Conquests. 31 total. I had figured civs in Civ4 would have more distinctiveness than in C3 or SMAC. I wouldn't mind if there were no more distinctiveness than in C2 but we had at least 40 civs available and could create new ones with the same amount of distinctiveness as the out of the box ones: the name of the Civ, the male ruler, the female ruler, the city names, and the graphics.

	22-03-2005 15:29									#8
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They need to make the Civs like Civ3 and SMAC but make them customizable too like MoO. In other words, if you want to play historically then the Civ will have certain bonuses or special units but if you just like the name or certain bonuses then you should have the option of picking those bonuses (and your colour).

Also, they don't have to add many Civs in Civ4. All they have to do is make the Civs customizable and configurable so that other people in the world research and add their own historical (or otherwise) Civs. Let the fans do some of the work but make it easy to do that work and to add it to the game.

It'll come to the point in the future (as has already occurred in some games) where the game developers create a robus engine and a bit of content but the players (aka modders) provide the majority of the content. What'll make or break those games is the amount of add-ons and consequently the ability to integrate properly with the game (support will be needed for this too).

Last edited by TitanTim on 22-03-2005 at 15:34

	22-03-2005 18:15									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Capt Dizle Not that it matters. Its not as if the civs will feel and play uniquely like the factions of SMAC. Basically, they are all the same.

So true . . . unfortunately.

	22-03-2005 19:59									#10
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Hebrews & Arabs better be in... but there probably will not be civs that were basically just countries with power at a more limited timeframe, like the Prussians. OTOH, the Ottoman Empire didn't exist for that lon either, and it exists in Civ3.

	22-03-2005 22:36									#11
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Yeah well, I don't have much faith in my own research and I'd prefer not to use that of other fans either.

So with the ones you guys are suggesting, who would they replace from my list? Japan? Persia? Mongolia? Spain?

Do you think there will be nonplayable civs that are more than just barbarians?

	22-03-2005 22:44									#12
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Not much we can guess at this point... definite indications of Rome, Hebrews, France and India in, but nothing more.

	22-03-2005 23:03									#13
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So the other fifteen could all be new to the game? Maybe Olmec, Inuit, Cree, Guarani, Basque, Karelia, Saami, Tibet, Nepal, Ainu, Australian Aborigines, Hawaii, Rapa Nui, Maori, Tonga...

	22-03-2005 23:19									#14
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Theoretically, yes. Practically, I really doubt that. I'm fairly sure that the civs that have always been in Civ will be there, some of them. Germans, Russians, Americans, Chinese and English - these I am 99% sure of. And I don't think either that this will be like EU2 where you can play even the most obscure country .

The number of 19 civs is surprising, though. I'd understand 18 or 20, but 19 is unusual.

	22-03-2005 23:26									#15
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so Rome, Hebrews, France, India, Germans, Russians, Americans, Chinese, English, Polynesians, Australian Aborigines, Tibet, Olmec, Inuit, Iroquois, Sioux, Arabs, Cherokee, Navajo.

	23-03-2005 00:01									#16
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Firaxis always have avoided anything with a hint of dangerous smells. In other words, I'd not be surprised if Israel is not in.

	23-03-2005 00:08									#17
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I don't care much about which civs are in, but I want them to be different from each other (not just like Civ3), but somehow I doubt they'll do this

But PLEASE make it possible to randomize the colors for each nation (in the game)

	23-03-2005 00:34									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai Firaxis always have avoided anything with a hint of dangerous smells. In other words, I'd not be surprised if Israel is not in.

Israel is probably not in, Hebrews are, although it could be vice versa. Note that civs in Civ are usually nations, not countries.

	23-03-2005 00:58									#19
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I'd love to have the Hebrews in, just so that is said, they are and were an important part of world history. It's just that they are somewhat "dangerous" PR wise I think.

	23-03-2005 01:18									#20
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Hebrews are not, I don't think. Israel is, maybe. There's definitely some political argument going on about Israel now... but not Hebrews. You can't argue that Hebrews don't exist, and can't argue they were not important. So I don't see a big PR problem there.

Besides, we know that among religions in the game, there is Judaism... now I really can't see how the religion model would work if it didn't have a country for which that religion is the default .

	23-03-2005 01:22									#21
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Well, Call to Power had Hebrews, just without much cultural distinction, and seems to have gotten away with it, but maybe with what we know of religion in C4 it would be more dangerous.

	23-03-2005 01:46									#22
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Then I'd guess Native American tribe, Arab, Israel... and undetermined 4rth one since Ethiopia makes 2 in Africa which for a North American market may or may not fit.

Incas, or some group of Ausatralia's continent maybe

	23-03-2005 01:50									#23
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CtP had a lot of civs... Civ4 is not going that way.

	23-03-2005 02:09									#24
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I don't think North America would have a problem with two African civs.

Suggested revision of my most recent complete list; replace Inuit with Inca.

	23-03-2005 03:04									#25
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For Marketing Reasons, the US has to be included.

With a religion model, it's quite of obvious that the following Civs need included:

Egypt [egyptain gods]
Hebrews [Judism]
Greeks [Stoicism]
India [Hinduism & Budism]
China [Confucism]
Italy [Roman Catholicism]
Arabs [Muslims]
Russia [Greek Orthodox]
Germany [Protestism; well the northern sections anyway]
At least one Native American tribe [native indian shamens]
At least one African tribe [african tribial]

	23-03-2005 03:19									#26
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Stoicism is not a religion, it's more a philosophical worldview.

The following civs have been in Civ1, Civ2 and Civ3 vanilla:

Russians, Egyptians, English, Germans, Americans, Chinese, French, Zulu, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, India (12 civs). Either that's all or there were Aztecs in Civ2, can't remember - hope the list is correct, though. Anyway, I think these will be in. And I don't really see Italy being in - Italy is just a country, relatively new, and Rome takes its place in the game.

So, I'm 90% sure about those 12 civs I mentioned being in. Hebrews too, that's 13. Then, Aztecs and Japanese are very likely. That's 15 civs out of 19. For the remaining 4, I am willing to bet Arabs, some Native American tribe (Dacota?), another Asian (Persia or Mongols come to mind) and the Spanish too, with all their American colonization stuff.

	23-03-2005 03:31									#27
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Civ3 has had a total of 31 official civs, but the Hebrew were not among them. I would expect that Firaxis will pick the civs from Civ4 mostly from the list of civs that were also in Civ3, so it's not logical to assume that the Hebrew will be in (though of course it can't be entirely ruled out either).

And I don't see why they should. When ranking the most important civs in history, I would definitely not put the Hebrews in the top 20, or even the top 40 for that matter. Their 'empire' was only of (some) regional significance, their only real accomplishment is their religion. By that reasoning the Harappans, Vikings, Celts, Olmec, etc should be included as well, but it's unlikely they're all in. If existing religions such as Christianity, Islam, etc are featured in Civ4 (as opposed to generic/anonymous religions as some other games have), one would expect that Judaism is included as well, but the same does not apply for the Hebrew as a civilization.

	23-03-2005 03:48									#28
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Aztecs were in Civ2.

Newest revision: England, France, Germany, Russia, Rome, Greece, Egypt, Zulu, Babylon, China, India, USA, Aztec, Japan, Persia, Mongol, Spain, Israel, Arabia

	23-03-2005 03:55									#29
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Much of the world today is very aware of the Hebrew nation and their religion has mucgh greater influence on the modern world than that of the Vikings, Celts or Olmecs. Especially the primary audience of the game. But I agree that Judaism can be in the game without the Hebrew nation.

	23-03-2005 04:06									#30
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quote: And I don't see why they should. When ranking the most important civs in history, I would definitely not put the Hebrews in the top 20, or even the top 40 for that matter. Their 'empire' was only of (some) regional significance, their only real accomplishment is their religion.

Can't agree there. Yes, the Kingdom of Israel itself didn't have a huge importance on the world, but the religion makes Hebrews one of the most important civs. Judaism also became the foundation for Christianity, and Christianity and the Bible are some of the most important things out there. I know you're an atheist, but you can't deny the importance of that. Besides, it's existing religions that are in Civ4, so Hebrews have to be in if Judaism is in - otherwise it would be sort of stupid. Like having Islam without Arabs or something like that.

And the civs that were in Civ1, Civ2 and Civ3 vanilla are definitely going to come back. Plus some extras.