23-03-2005 01:37									#91
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Always thought that "cannot" was an unamerican commie word?

	23-03-2005 02:02									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Odin It has nothing to do with personal ownership of weapons. It becomes obvious if you read the whole amendment carefully.

Little fuel for the fire: United States v. Emerson

	23-03-2005 04:37									#93
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Simple fact if I had access to a gun at a certain time of my life, hundreds of people would be dead. Thank god I didn't have access to a gun.

	23-03-2005 05:55									#94
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turns out this kid was a nazi.

I didn't know non-white people could be nazi's.

	23-03-2005 05:58									#95
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yeah I was watching MSNBC, and now there's a constituency pushning for regulation of the internet because apparantly this kid was communicating with hate groups via the internet. I'll comment when I know more about this.

	23-03-2005 06:07									#96
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yeah because of posters like Thorn, Apolyton could be considered a hate group. Then the U.S. goverment will restrict Apolyton to everyone in the U.S.

This will force me to overthrow the U.S. goverment, allowing Canada and Mexico to conquer the U.S. The world would go into a serious economic depression.

so let's hope that does not happen.

	23-03-2005 06:10									#97
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Finally I have evidence to report Dissident to Homeland Security, BWHAHAHAHAHAH!

	23-03-2005 06:15									#98
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my username says it all. I am a dissident. All I need is enough motivation to overthrow the goverment, and I will.

	23-03-2005 08:23									#99
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As long as the Eurocoms don't come sniffing around our asses, sticking their noses in our right to kill buffalo and frizzy-haired ethnicly ambigous invaders, this thread may go forward.

	23-03-2005 17:22									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident turns out this kid was a nazi. I didn't know non-white people could be nazi's.

His photograph also shows a chubby (if not fat) kid who was apparently bullied at school. From what news reports have mentioned of his adulation for Neo-Nazism, it appears to be little other than ill-informed displacement or wish-fulfillment about 'Adolf being unafraid to take on bigger nations', and so on.


It's always much easier to focus on Marilyn Manson, horror comics, video games or Neo Nazi websites than on the availability of handguns or automatic or semi-automatic weapons and a bullying culture in schools.

He didn't kill the teacher, security guard and fellow pupils with Sim City, Pac Man, 'Mein Kampf', 'The Witching Hour', his laptop or Manson's cover version of 'Tainted Love'.

	23-03-2005 19:04									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Gian, you have no "right" to own a gun. The 2nd Amendment was to prevent a hypothetical tyrannical federal government from disarming state-controled millitias. It has nothing to do with personal ownership of weapons. It becomes obvious if you read the whole amendment carefully. The sad thing about this is that it became legal to carry concealed weapons in public here just last year.

So "the people" in this amendment means something different than it does in the other 9 amendments which were adopted at the same time?

Did you know that the term "well regulated" meant well trained at the time that the constitution was written?

Here's the amendment:

A well-regulated (ie well trained) Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.

So the idea is that in order to supply a steady source of people who are familiar with weapons for the militia, the government will not infringe upon the people's (already existing right) to keep and bear arms.

	23-03-2005 19:17									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander So "the people" in this amendment means something different than it does in the other 9 amendments which were adopted at the same time? Did you know that the term "well regulated" meant well trained at the time that the constitution was written? Here's the amendment: A well-regulated (ie well trained) Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed. So the idea is that in order to supply a steady source of people who are familiar with weapons for the militia, the government will not infringe upon the people's (already existing right) to keep and bear arms.

The last paragraph's argument just seems a bit redundant to me. Surely the National Guard is now the militia with formal training and an arsenal of their own weaponry. Why do the people need guns still? Are we assuming a draft is coming soon and there won't be time to train and arm these citizens?

Plus I don't know if it's true or not but are most gun owners actually well trained in their usage/maintenance/etc..? Or is it just something they have hidden in a drawer just in case?

	23-03-2005 19:34									#103
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According to the latest news reports, this shooter drove to school in a police car and used a police gun. Gun control would have made no difference, as the police would still have guns in any case.

All of you who blamed a lack of gun control on this shooting can consider themselve PWNed.

	23-03-2005 19:37									#104
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quote: Plus I don't know if it's true or not but are most gun owners actually well trained in their usage/maintenance/etc..? Or is it just something they have hidden in a drawer just in case?

There's no knowing. However most people I know take very good care of thier weapons, as most people I know have them for hunting purposes.

	23-03-2005 19:55									#105
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quote: It's always much easier to focus on Marilyn Manson, horror comics, video games or Neo Nazi websites than on the availability of handguns or automatic or semi-automatic weapons and a bullying culture in schools.

Actually the easier route is the opposite, and the true difference is treating the disease or the symptoms.

quote: Why do the people need guns still?

As demonstrated in this thread, to keep knee-jerk liberals from trying to dismantle our constitution.

	23-03-2005 20:01									#106
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quote: Why do the people need guns still?

So we can shoot people who burn books.

	23-03-2005 21:40									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Space05us quote: Why do the people need guns still? So we can shoot people who burn books.

hehe touché!

	23-03-2005 22:36									#108
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That's what I never understand about conservatives, whenever it comes to guns all of sudden they are SO DEFENSIVE of the Constitution, but they have no problem violating the rest of the constitution. I didn't think the constitution was pick or choose.

	23-03-2005 23:13									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi According to the latest news reports, this shooter drove to school in a police car and used a police gun. Gun control would have made no difference, as the police would still have guns in any case. All of you who blamed a lack of gun control on this shooting can consider themselve PWNed.

Hmm, I know very few kids here who would even think of getting a gun, it's not just your gun laws, it's your atttitude towards guns and violence as well.

	23-03-2005 23:37									#110
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It amazes me that Americans still care about what a few intellectuals thought 200 years ago. Lets remember that these were the same individuals who decided that blacks should be counted as 2/3 of a person in national censuses, didn't allow women to vote and allowed slavery to continue.

Why on earth should what these people thought have any impact on modern politcal debate?

	24-03-2005 03:52									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi According to the latest news reports, this shooter drove to school in a police car and used a police gun. Gun control would have made no difference, as the police would still have guns in any case. All of you who blamed a lack of gun control on this shooting can consider themselve PWNed.

well if the grandfather had done a better job of keeping his gun secured, this wouldn't have happened...

that is a form of gun control...

hence

j00 = teh pwned!

	24-03-2005 04:02									#113
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I keep thinking of how these kids remind me of me when I was in secondary school... makes me kind of sad, but at least I didn't turn out that way.... I've made it to the terrorist watch list, yippie for me.

	24-03-2005 09:03									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi According to the latest news reports, this shooter drove to school in a police car and used a police gun. Gun control would have made no difference, as the police would still have guns in any case. All of you who blamed a lack of gun control on this shooting can consider themselve PWNed.

Do you mean pawned? And what does that mean (dropped off for a check, I know, but in your usage?)

	24-03-2005 09:07									#115
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Maybe if high school weren't such a social competition horrible tragedies like this wouldn't have to happen?

	24-03-2005 09:08									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Gun control would have made no difference, as the police would still have guns in any case.

That's an assumption. Gun control that only applies to certain people:

	24-03-2005 09:14									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Thorn I keep thinking of how these kids remind me of me when I was in secondary school... makes me kind of sad, but at least I didn't turn out that way.... I've made it to the terrorist watch list, yippie for me.

Yeah...whatever Sergeant Sheets.

	24-03-2005 09:28									#118
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Here is a relevent article:

quote: Firearms and alcohol were key culprits in the report by the Medical Research Council, providing a fresh illustration of the dangers of life in a country known for some of the highest rates of violent crime in the world.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/afric...reut/index.html

	24-03-2005 13:40									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Demerzel The last paragraph's argument just seems a bit redundant to me. Surely the National Guard is now the militia with formal training and an arsenal of their own weaponry. Why do the people need guns still? Are we assuming a draft is coming soon and there won't be time to train and arm these citizens? Plus I don't know if it's true or not but are most gun owners actually well trained in their usage/maintenance/etc..? Or is it just something they have hidden in a drawer just in case?

Here's section 311 of the U.S. Code which is the relevent section:

Section 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

-------------

As for your second question, it's a mixed bag. Most rural gun owners at least have experience where they lack common sense. Most suburban shooters do their shooting on a range where they either learn to handle their weapons safely, or they are banned. Most states require that those applying for hunting licenses have taken a hunter safety course. Of course there are a large number of military veterans as well who have learned safety by the numbers.

The scariest group in terms of gun handling that I have met were kids from the innner city while I was in the army. Probably more than half of them had fired a gun, but not at a range or out in the wilderness, but in an alley or down a street! They learned to shoot (and I use this term extremely loosely here) not from their fathers, but by screwing around with weapons with other young teenagers. They were dangerously overconfident and had a lot of bad habits, though I was able to trust most of them by the end of basic training.

As for marksmanship, I think it really does help. My basic training company of 130 or so men turned out about a dozen "expert" marksmen, the highest rating. As we only fired about 5-600 rounds in basic training, I doubt that anyone would have been able to qualify as an expert if they had never fired a weapon before.

	25-03-2005 11:16									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant It amazes me that Americans still care about what a few intellectuals thought 200 years ago. Lets remember that these were the same individuals who decided that blacks should be counted as 2/3 of a person in national censuses, didn't allow women to vote and allowed slavery to continue. Why on earth should what these people thought have any impact on modern politcal debate?

* Straybow refrains from saying something sarcastic

Hmmm, seems to me your right to free speech comes from those same minds. Still think we shouldn't listen to them?

If you actually read the relevant portions you'd see that those intellectuals realized that slavery would have to end, but in order to induce southern states to join included a provision that slavery could not be brought to question for a period of 50 years.