23-03-2005 06:54									#1
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OK, at another forum we're having a lively discussion about the British Newspaper The Guardian. Some people are holding it up as being the paragon of journalistic impartiality while others are contending it is highly biased and mixes editorial and news content. Who's right? Anyone know anything about the Guardian which might spread light no this matter?

	23-03-2005 07:02									#2
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Why can't it be both? The truth very often tends to be biased one way or another. It's very rarely in the middle.

	23-03-2005 07:03									#3
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	23-03-2005 07:08									#4
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It's not impartial. It's a left-wing new source, just like, say, the Economist is a right-wing news source. That doesn't make it Indymedia or Fox News.

	23-03-2005 07:08									#5
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It's spelled "Grauniad" thank you very much.

It is a liberal left leaning paper that also prints stuff from the right. It's about as close as you will get in Britain to being impartial.

	23-03-2005 07:18									#6
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why can't it be both? The truth very often tends to be biased one way or another. It's very rarely in the middle.

In journalism school good journalists are taught to keep facts seporate from opinions. The Guardian doesn't do that so, in my and many other peoples' opinions, it is not a good source of reliable journalism. Please notice how that is unrealated to the message the Guardian is sending out. Instead it has everything to do with the manner in which the Guardian says (or doesn't say) things.

	23-03-2005 07:21									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's spelled "Grauniad" thank you very much. It is a liberal left leaning paper that also prints stuff from the right. It's about as close as you will get in Britain to being impartial.

The Economist seems to be very impartial about delivering the news and they clearly deliniate what is editorial (I.E. opinion) from news facts.

	23-03-2005 07:23									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin In journalism school good journalists are taught to keep facts seporate from opinions.

Ironically, it was before there was ever such a thing as a journalism degree that we had all the best journalists. There is no such thing as objectivity, and all journalists make certain unstated assumptions. I much perfer a journalist who wears his heart on his sleve, so you know what bias your source actually has, as opposed to those who have them but keep them hidden.

My point as to the truth not being in the middle remains. Moderation rarely leads one to the truth of the matter, or all you would need to do is split opinions down the middle. Generally speaking, one side is correct, the other side is wrong, and moderating your view only leads you to being half wrong.

	23-03-2005 07:23									#9
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You don't know when to let it lie - you're now trying to spread this argument somewhere else because you got your arse so badly kicked at CG

	23-03-2005 07:24									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The Economist seems to be very impartial about delivering the news and they clearly deliniate what is editorial (I.E. opinion) from news facts.

I would disagree with Aggie that it's a right wing magazine. Then again, from my American perspective, even true conservatives are left-wing.

	23-03-2005 07:24									#11
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The Economist is one of my favorite magazines... but it has it's biases as well... However, they can tell both sides of a story. When it comes to opinions, they are as biased as any other news source.

	23-03-2005 07:29									#12
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The Economist is probably the best right wing publication. All of Murdoch's papers and the Mail are beyond the pale.

It's weird, but virtually all the papers back in NZ (except things like The National Business Review)have no political agenda at all. I suppose I could call the NZ Herald "boring", but people wouldn't buy a biased paper.

It's one reason I find buying papers in Canada so offensive. They can't just report the damn news, they have to pontificate about it.

	23-03-2005 07:33									#13
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The FT is the best Brit news source -- it seems to be one of the only Brit publications that tries to be objective (I don't put The Guardian in that category).

	23-03-2005 07:33									#14
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quote: The Economist seems to be very impartial about delivering the news and they clearly deliniate what is editorial (I.E. opinion) from news facts.

Not really. Its news is pretty biased, particularly on economic issues. There's a strong neo-liberal sentiment evident in its news.

Which, again, is not necessarily a bad thing, as it's not unreasonable or deliberately deceptive (unlike some news sources). Objectivity is an unrealistic conceit.

	23-03-2005 07:35									#15
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quote: The FT is the best Brit news source -- it seems to be one of the only Brit publications that tries to be objective.

Do you deliberately say stupid things to provoke ridicule?

	23-03-2005 07:36									#16
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The Independent

	23-03-2005 07:36									#17
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The FT isn't nearly as good as the Wall Street Journal, mind.

	23-03-2005 07:38									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison You don't know when to let it lie - you're now trying to spread this argument somewhere else because you got your arse so badly kicked at CG

I simply don't see it that way. It basically degenerated into a "Yes, it is", "No, it isn't" type thing so I'm looking for a second opinion. Someone who might be able to interject a bit of fact into the discussion.

	23-03-2005 07:40									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's weird, but virtually all the papers back in NZ (except things like The National Business Review)have no political agenda at all. I suppose I could call the NZ Herald "boring", but people wouldn't buy a biased paper. It's one reason I find buying papers in Canada so offensive. They can't just report the damn news, they have to pontificate about it.

Then it sounds like New Zealand has a few things going for it compared to the rest of the English speaking world.

	23-03-2005 10:15									#20
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The worst kind of bias is the sort which you can't notice...

But haven't you already realised that Guardian is a crap newspaper, Oerdin? I thought you were the first ones who dared to ridicule it's contents here? Why, just take a look at their reporting from Iraq and compare that to your own experiences.

	23-03-2005 10:19									#21
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Yes, I do believe it is a crap paper but at another site some people were claiming it was just peachy and they even got into a big laughing fit when I stated the Guardian was biased towards a political view point and that is often didn't clearly separate facts from opinion. I guess different countries have different standards as to what constitutes good journalism or some people just want to hear their own views reinforced.

	23-03-2005 12:39									#22
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There is no such thing as objectivity, and all journalists make certain unstated assumptions. I much perfer a journalist who wears his heart on his sleve, so you know what bias your source actually has, as opposed to those who have them but keep them hidden.

Exactly. Everybody is biased one way or another. A person may be biased subconsciously, consciously, or both.

How a story is written, where it is located in the paper, amount of space devoted to it, etc. all serve to colour a reader's opinions.

	23-03-2005 13:46									#23
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You are right that bias can never be completely removed but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. The guardian doesn't even try. A good journal will try to remove as much bias as possible and only present objective facts.

	23-03-2005 14:16									#24
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I'd say that the Guardian and the the Financial Times and the least biased UK Papers. The Times isn't SO bad either.

The Independent has become a complete mess over the last few years. I used to buy the Guardian Monday to Saturday and get the Independent on Sunday (no Guardian published on a Sunday) but a couple of years ago the Indi suddenly seemed to lose it. They hate Blair so overtly that its cringeworthy. Also (although I agree with them) - their front page spash last summer about what the EU does for the UK, a very biased list of things that the UK gets out of the EU, was ridiculous. It essentially printed a huge editorial in bullet point form on the front page. Although with the huge bias of the right wing papers, maybe we need a liberal-left paper to start to fighting fire with fire.

Back to the Guardian. People here on poly seem to have some bizarre view of the Guardian. Its really a pretty moderate paper by European standards. The editorial section is filled with a mass of different views - Conservative politicians, Labour politicians, Social Democrats, old-school Socialists - but the only articles that ever seem to get posted here are the lunatic ones. If you want a paper where the editorial section has a concise political agenda, then dont buy the Guardian, but if you want to hear a range of views then it's the paper for you.

As for bias in the news reporting itself - I agree with what has been said above about total impartiality being impossible but I challenge anyone to find a news article in the Guardian that is anywhere NEAR as biased as something I could find flicking through the Sun, the Mail, the Indi or the Mirror.

	23-03-2005 14:18									#25
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How many other papers have published a plea for political assassination?

	23-03-2005 14:28									#26
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither How many other papers have published a plea for political assassination?

?

	23-03-2005 16:34									#27
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Guardian has lots of bias. I wouldn't trust it as my source for news.

	23-03-2005 16:39									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The Economist seems to be very impartial about delivering the news and they clearly deliniate what is editorial (I.E. opinion) from news facts.

Like the Guardian.

	23-03-2005 16:42									#29
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I should make it clear, that even though I consider Guardian biased source, it doesn't make everything it says untrue 100%.

	23-03-2005 16:46									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You are right that bias can never be completely removed but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. The guardian doesn't even try. A good journal will try to remove as much bias as possible and only present objective facts.

What's an objective fact ?

Such a rara avis that I've certainly never seen one used in American political discourse.


There seem to be 'liberal' facts and Right wing Christian facts, Creationist 'facts', African American facts, et cetera.


If you're going to criticise the Guardian's reporting as being biased, and being biased towards a particular view, then use examples, rather than just saying 'it is' again and again.


So biased it is it towards 'a' or 'one' political view, that it had the likes of Melanie Phillips and Julie Burchill and Germaine Greer writing pieces. Which single viewpoint do they all espouse ?