26-03-2005 11:08									#421
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer POA is prefered simply because it is clear--what they say goes, cut and dry. At least, that's the way it is supposed to work, and usually does when your governor isn't named Bush.

Yeah...I understand that it is clear. That is great for people like docs and hospitals that are all about CYA. I am trying to think through the thing in terms of possibilities for misuse. It certainly seems that a statement from the patient has more validity about the patient's rights than a ceded right to decide to another person.

	26-03-2005 11:09									#422
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quote: Less understandable, except as a matter of pathology, is the way some on the ideological right are viewing the matter. I'm referring to what Neggy Poonan calls "the bizarre passion of the [b]keep-her-alive-no-matter-how-brain-dead." As Poonan notes, the likes of the neocons and Carl Rove can scarcely contain their glee that attempts to prevent Terri from death through de-hydration have failed. Why? Maybe they have "fallen in love with divisive issues," as Poonan suggests? Or maybe they are just frustrated by that the American people don't approve of this or eliminating Social Security for private accounts, seeing the casualties in Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East (must Terri die to galvinize the "base"?), etc. Whatever the case, it makes for a sad and sorry spectacle."

I can also quote speculation, and so-called experts, and distort it for the other side.

	26-03-2005 11:10									#423
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They are the reason I'm not a Republian anymore.

che... was a republican?

	26-03-2005 11:12									#424
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Competent investigation after competent investigation has been conducted and all of the anti-abortion rights peoples' lies can't change that. 19 judges and 12 doctors have presided over this case for the last 15 years and every single one of them has come to the exact same conclusion. Inventing desenting doctors who have never even seen the patient just doesn't cut it in a court of law.

I wish the religious right would just mind their own damn business for once in their life because this is what Terri told her husband, there mutual friends, and he sister in law what she wanted if this ever happened to her. The law is clear as crystal and that's why the supreme court has refused to entertain the rabid religious right's frivolous legal motions some half dozen times. The religious groups are trying to force their personal beeliefs upon other people and that's just not right.

	26-03-2005 11:12									#425
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quote: Originally posted by GePap quote: Biased? I think there are enough people who have no interest whatsoever in the the outcome of this case who have flatly contradicted the testimony of Michael, someone who has an apparent conflict. Biased? Bull. What about the three guardians appointed by the courts and the multiple doctors working for the court who studied her and found evidence that all those claims you are bringing up are a buchn of ****?? You know what? There are many witnesses to UFO's. Somehow, that doesn't make UFO's true.

Once you demonstrate to me that the Guardians hired counsel to conduct an investigation into the credibility of Michael and others on the issue of consent, I will back off. Merely hiring doctors to confirm that Terri had no EEG and had a shrunken brain is not the same thing as hiring an attorney for Terri, which the Guardians never did.

	26-03-2005 11:12									#426
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski I understand why he did it. The why doesn't make it right. ACK!

Lemme guess... You'd be one of those people who say that gay marriage would ruin the santicity of marriage even though the santicity of marriage is ruined by the lack of morals and priorities in marriage and the divorce rate?

	26-03-2005 11:12									#427
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I assure you, if a criminal defendent was ordered to be put to death after a trial where they were not represented by counsel, the whole proceding would be declared unconstitutional.

Actually, according to The Chicago Tribune it would be pretty normal, as they found that fully 1/3rd of all those sentenced to die in the State of Texas weren't adequately represented by counsel.

	26-03-2005 11:13									#428
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I can't believe how naive some of you are. The man went into court for the malpractice suit and swore he'd take care of Terri for the rest of her natural life. As soon as the money got put in the trust fund however, he started reneging on his promise. At first, he limited himself to do-not-resuscitate orders and denial of antibiotics to treat infections. Eventually, he petitioned the court to pull her feeding tube. And all throughout this, he was busy starting a new family. Sure, it's theoretically possible that he still loves her dearly, but you have to be really damn gullible to look at what's happened and draw that conclusion. That, or motivated by ideological considerations that make you unwilling to accept any possibilities that don't support your side...

	26-03-2005 11:13									#429
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quote: Originally posted by Bill3000 che... was a republican?

'Till 20 years ago, yep. There used to be a strange breed of political animal called a liberal Republican. Now they are an x-beast.

	26-03-2005 11:14									#430
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc I can also quote speculation, and so-called experts, and distort it for the other side.

You're such a knee-jerk. If you will get over your need to win (that causes you all to elide points), you will realize that the statement is fully aimed at either side in these types of arguments. And if you read the rest of the article (and think and are smart), you will note that the author is citing the danger of people on HIS SIDE of basing their arguments on some feeling or statement that they KNOW what Terri told Micheal, when of couse they can't know that. Do you savvy? He is sounding a cuationary note to his side!?

	26-03-2005 11:14									#431
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You're arguing with me after I clearly stated I'm engaging in character assassinaton? I will note you were far more willing to believe ill of the husband than the folks, even if we've learned anything from psychiatry, it's always the parents fault!

If this was addressed to me, I have heard numerous independent, adverse witnesses against Michael Schiavo and none against the parents who are not Michael himself, his brother or his lawyers.

	26-03-2005 11:15									#432
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quote: Originally posted by Bill3000 che... was a republican?

He fell in with a Commie cult.

	26-03-2005 11:16									#433
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quote: Originally posted by Bill3000 Lemme guess... You'd be one of those people who say that gay marriage would ruin the santicity of marriage even though the santicity of marriage is ruined by the lack of morals and priorities in marriage and the divorce rate?

Wrong. I support gay marriage. Look in any gay marriage thread.

Wedding vows say 'til death do us part. He didn't obey his vow.

Therefore, using moral high ground to defend him is ridiculous.

ACK!

	26-03-2005 11:16									#434
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc He fell in with a Commie cult.

More like got saved.

	26-03-2005 11:16									#435
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually, according to The Chicago Tribune it would be pretty normal, as they found that fully 1/3rd of all those sentenced to die in the State of Texas weren't adequately represented by counsel.

You can't say stuff like that completely out of context. The Chicago Tribune has no standing whatsoever to determine whether or not someone has been adequately represented or not. That is a cheap shot and I know you, che, you can make good arguments so why do you want to spoil your rep by making the kind of sleezy comment like some OJ lawyer. It is beneath you.

The Chicago Tribune can't get the weather right for chrissakes.

	26-03-2005 11:17									#436
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Wrong. I support gay marriage. Look in any gay marriage thread. Wedding vows say 'til death do us part. He didn't obey his vow. Therefore, using moral high ground to defend him is ridiculous. ACK!

But she's dead in sentience anyway. If her mind is dead, I would consider that dead. She's just a shell now.

	26-03-2005 11:19									#437
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc He fell in with a Commie cult.

After I stopped being a Republican, and after I stopped being a Democrat too, for that matter. They caught me when I was sort of in a "spiritual" crisis, when I realized that if the people working for the U.S. government were willing to break the law abroad, why would they respect it at home if they thought it necessary to "save" the country. Kinda makes you realize the futility of electoral politics as a path for making the world a better place.

	26-03-2005 11:19									#438
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara it's only the self-righteous, evil, hypocritical bastards who want to force the rest of us to live by their bliefs I hate. And I'm allowed, cuz they want to force me to think and believe and act in ways contrary to my beliefs and desires.

Funny that many would say the same about most ideologues.

	26-03-2005 11:20									#439
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Why? This presumption has a 50-50 chance of being wrong, meaning you might very well be denying her the right to refuse medical care, which is every American's right. This is why the case went to court, and three witnesses spoke, and the court decided that there was sufficient evidence under Florida law to establish she would have wanted to die. If anything is ideology driven, if the assumption to "favor life".

GePap, no doubt there was sufficient evidence produced at trial to condemn Terri to death. But Terri had no attorney to test that evidence and to introduce contrary witnesses. Is that fair?

	26-03-2005 11:22									#440
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Competent investigation after competent investigation has been conducted and all of the anti-abortion rights peoples' lies can't change that. 19 judges and 12 doctors have presided over this case for the last 15 years and every single one of them has come to the exact same conclusion. Inventing desenting doctors who have never even seen the patient just doesn't cut it in a court of law. I wish the religious right would just mind their own damn business for once in their life because this is what Terri told her husband, there mutual friends, and he sister in law what she wanted if this ever happened to her. The law is clear as crystal and that's why the supreme court has refused to entertain the rabid religious right's frivolous legal motions some half dozen times. The religious groups are trying to force their personal beeliefs upon other people and that's just not right.

Actually, I think it's her parents.

I agree it's a **** sandwhich, but I think they feel right in what they are doing/are allowing to be done.

	26-03-2005 11:23									#441
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quote: Originally posted by Capt Dizle You can't say stuff like that completely out of context. The Chicago Tribune has no standing whatsoever to determine whether or not someone has been adequately represented or not.

They found that most pople facing with capital punishment were frequently unable to obtain adequate counsel and relied up court appointed attorneys. These attorneys were frequently overworked, incompetent, and or negligent. They illustrated with cases where the attornies fell asleep during the trial, did no investigation or interviewed no witnesses, etc. They did a massive investigative series on it back in 2001, and then some *******s decide to committ some massacres in NYC and DC and the issue dropped like a rock.

	26-03-2005 11:24									#442
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Funny that many would say the same about most ideologues.

They'd probably be right. Many of my cothinkers scare the bejeezuz outta me.

	26-03-2005 11:25									#443
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quote: Apparently the court appointed doctor only spent about a half-hour examining Terri, though.

Source?

	26-03-2005 11:25									#444
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quote: Originally posted by Ned If this was addressed to me,

It was not.

	26-03-2005 11:25									#445
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quote: Originally posted by Ned GePap, no doubt there was sufficient evidence produced at trial to condemn Terri to death. But Terri had no attorney to test that evidence and to introduce contrary witnesses. Is that fair?

Ned, are you trying to break new legal ground here? Is it customary to have counsel appointed? If not, you are asking for a radical departure, a tough sell.

I thought the due process claim had been thoroughly reviewed already multiple times?

	26-03-2005 11:27									#446
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Clearly this whole debate shows that a signed statement is the way to go for these issues. What is to stop a future husband from lying about his wife's feelings in the future (even if Terri's is telling the truth)?

Also, I would think that whenever a husband actively begins to try to have his wife put to death through his uncorroborated testimony, I would either deny the motion or appoint an attorney to represent the wife. I think Florida's law that allows someone to be put to death without evidence and without counsel is blatantly unconstitutional.

	26-03-2005 11:27									#447
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They'd probably be right. Many of my cothinkers scare the bejeezuz outta me.

You are honest about it. I have to give you that.

	26-03-2005 11:30									#448
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's not bigotry if its true.

Universally true is required for your bigotry to be something else than it is.

	26-03-2005 11:31									#449
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: Apparently the court appointed doctor only spent about a half-hour examining Terri, though. Source?

Won't give you the satisfaction. You're going to get all huffy when it's NEWSMAX.

	26-03-2005 11:32									#450
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They found that most pople facing with capital punishment were frequently unable to obtain adequate counsel and relied up court appointed attorneys. These attorneys were frequently overworked, incompetent, and or negligent. They illustrated with cases where the attornies fell asleep during the trial, did no investigation or interviewed no witnesses, etc. They did a massive investigative series on it back in 2001, and then some *******s decide to committ some massacres in NYC and DC and the issue dropped like a rock.

Even if they were correct in this, I can't see that it has much bearing on Schiavo. I think you took a cheap shot at Curious George.

doesn't upset me a lot right now believe me