25-03-2005 06:30									#61
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This may well paralyze lectures into a stand-still, but fortunately university exams don't have to have anything to do with lectures and aren't covered by the bill.

	25-03-2005 06:32									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: I guess it's not a big deal that he got confused then. No. He actually brought it up as I'd only briefly mentioned it in the lecture. We actually spent most of the tutorial arguing about Mill and euthanasia. Fun argument though, although I think it made the other students uncomfortable. I guess that it will resume next week.

I remember those days in my economics courses. Screw the other students. Maybe some will rub off on them.

	25-03-2005 06:38									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Not tolerating the wrong ideas of others may be a good thing. No, just the logical conclusion to your words. And, yes, absolutely monarchy should be discussed in poly sci and history classes (if you say absolutely monarchy, the logical reading would come to the same response).

Of course it should, just as religion in art but as a historical happening - not as the reason behind what has happend/are the goal for future.

If your claim should be valid, then everyone should be teached deeply in greek and roman godbeliefs because they are also a great part of our current legal and ethical system.

	25-03-2005 06:42									#64
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quote: I remember those days in my economics courses. Screw the other students. Maybe some will rub off on them.

Perhaps. But I think they were just astonished that we would go for it. I would have been less intense, but he brought it up five minutes before the end of class.

	25-03-2005 06:43									#65
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quote: Of course it should, just as religion in art but as a historical happening - not as the reason behind what has happend/are the goal for future.

Religion was the reason behind the art. In order to really understand the art, you have to understand the religion behind it.

quote: then everyone should be teached deeply in greek and roman godbeliefs because they are also a great part of our current legal and ethical system.

To the extent those beliefs had an effect, then yes. We should definetly learn Roman and Greek law in studying our own law. If it was based on their ancient Gods, then that is important to be studied.

	25-03-2005 06:45									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: I remember those days in my economics courses. Screw the other students. Maybe some will rub off on them. Perhaps. But I think they were just astonished that we would go for it. I would have been less intense, but he brought it up five minutes before the end of class.

	25-03-2005 06:58									#67
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quote: then everyone should be teached deeply in greek and roman godbeliefs because they are also a great part of our current legal and ethical system.

No. Because I'd have to bloody do it, and it's a pain in the ass.

	25-03-2005 07:09									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Religion was the reason behind the art. In order to really understand the art, you have to understand the religion behind it.

You are right, but will you seriously claim that you have to make human sacrifces to understand the art of different central american cultures ? You may have to belive in the religion to make sense out of the art that the culture produced, but does that demand that current education must be guided by faith - that will certainly make a mees because people stuyding a certain period/area has to believe in the religions practiced at that time/place.

quote: quote: then everyone should be teached deeply in greek and roman godbeliefs because they are also a great part of our current legal and ethical system. To the extent those beliefs had an effect, then yes. We should definetly learn Roman and Greek law in studying our own law. If it was based on their ancient Gods, then that is important to be studied.

I agree. It is nessecary to know the background, but you don't need to base the future on religion just because that was what happend previously.

	25-03-2005 07:11									#69
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quote: will you seriously claim that you have to make human sacrifces to understand the art of different central american cultures

No, learning about something is not the same as performing it. That's why religion should be studied in the university.

quote: does that demand that current education must be guided by faith

Once again, you said:

"religion has only one place at a university, and that is at the theology faculty."

I've just showed you that religion has a place in many different disciplines. I'd wonder how you'd learn the Crusades if religion has no place in history.

	25-03-2005 07:15									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: then everyone should be teached deeply in greek and roman godbeliefs because they are also a great part of our current legal and ethical system. No. Because I'd have to bloody do it, and it's a pain in the ass.

You missed the point that they should be teached as religions at level with christianism. I guess that that would make your lessons more "interesting" to perform.

	25-03-2005 07:17									#71
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quote: You missed the point that they should be teached as religions at level with christianism.

Well I do think they should be taught as level with Christianity, depending on where they had influence.

	25-03-2005 07:20									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui "religion has only one place at a university, and that is at the theology faculty." I've just showed you that religion has a place in many different disciplines. I'd wonder how you'd learn the Crusades if religion has no place in history.

To be fair with him, I think he spoke about the actual belief in the supernatural. Religion as a human phenomenon is interesting for plenty of disciplines. Religious "truth", as a Godly phenomenon, is only interesting for Theology.

	25-03-2005 07:31									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: will you seriously claim that you have to make human sacrifces to understand the art of different central american cultures No, learning about something is not the same as performing it. That's why religion should be studied in the university. quote: does that demand that current education must be guided by faith Once again, you said: "religion has only one place at a university, and that is at the theology faculty." I've just showed you that religion has a place in many different disciplines. I'd wonder how you'd learn the Crusades if religion has no place in history.

Actually you have made my point stronger. We both agree that it may be nessecary to learn about a religion to understand history, art etc, but if the education is based upon a specific religion, how are you going to get the correct picture ?

My point has been that relgion as a belief has only one place in university, and that is in the theological department.

Religion as a part of history, art etc doesn't crave that you are a beliver of that faith that concerns the period/place you are interested in, which participation in the theological studies imply.

	25-03-2005 07:37									#74
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quote: if the education is based upon a specific religion, how are you going to get the correct picture

If the subject deals with one specific religion (like Christian art or Muslim art) then the education about that specific religion would be warrented in order to understand the subject.

quote: My point has been that relgion as a belief has only one place in university, and that is in the theological department.

But you have to know the belief in order to study history for example. If you don't know the belief, the history will not make as much sense.

quote: Religion as a part of history, art etc doesn't crave that you are a beliver of that faith

Who said you have to be a believer in the faith?

You just have to learn about the belief. The belief has to be taught.

	25-03-2005 07:38									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor To be fair with him, I think he spoke about the actual belief in the supernatural. Religion as a human phenomenon is interesting for plenty of disciplines. Religious "truth", as a Godly phenomenon, is only interesting for Theology.

Ahh, merci !!! A frenchie understanding the meaning of my denglish

	25-03-2005 07:52									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Who said you have to be a believer in the faith? You just have to learn about the belief. The belief has to be taught.

You have, and if you don't think that, wth have you made your postings ?

	25-03-2005 07:52									#77
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat My point has been that relgion as a belief has only one place in university, and that is in the theological department.

Why?

	25-03-2005 07:54									#78
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quote: You have, and if you don't think that, wth have you made your postings ?

Um... no I haven't. I've said religion is important to learn in the university. It explains many subjects much more in detail than without it. There has been a turn to try to 'get religion out' of the study of many subjects and that just leads to confusion over origins.

	25-03-2005 07:57									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Why?

Because I don't wan't religion to decide what is the thuth. If that was the case, this planet would still be flat.

	25-03-2005 07:58									#80
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In the sciences, if evolution is considered liberalism then tough ****. You can't refute a theory by the back door and red tape. In politics, or anything where verifiability is lost to subjectivity, then it's more complex. Ideally it should be neutral to allow the student his/her own opinion, but in the real world an intellectual professor is more likely to be liberal and so his best students. They signed onto the course, the course is under no obligation to provide bland neutrality. If conservatives object to it, then they should brush up their debating skills and defend their views, it's what's called a healthy discussion.

If their views are being suppressed, or their opinions are used against them by teachers beyond the debate then that's crossing the line, and it's not liberalism. Educational institutions and dogma have never mixed.

	25-03-2005 08:02									#81
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Because I don't wan't religion to decide what is the thuth. If that was the case, this planet would still be flat.

Professors don't decide what the truth is for anyone else but themselves. That's for the student to decide for themselves.

	25-03-2005 08:02									#82
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quote: Um... no I haven't. I've said religion is important to learn in the university. It explains many subjects much more in detail than without it. There has been a turn to try to 'get religion out' of the study of many subjects and that just leads to confusion over origins.

True, but I'd want it taught like history. There's a modal difference in the teaching of, say, Nazism, and the espousal of Nazism. Same thing goes for religion.

Like I said earlier, science should be taught on its merit, not by the politics of those who don't like the conclusions but lack the evidence and argument to refute evolution and the like. It's a question of truth and method, not of social dogma.

	25-03-2005 08:05									#83
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quote: Professors don't decide what the truth is for anyone else but themselves. That's for the student to decide for themselves.

But the student signs on to the course on the understanding that they will learn something, the professor is under no moral obligation to be neutral, the student on the other hand is under obligation to listen. A good professor will try to stay neutral and I'm sure the majority do (an inherently liberal thing to do of course) but he's not obliged to do so.

	25-03-2005 08:06									#84
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This whole thing, including alot of the discussion on this thread, makes me really wonder about the quality of post-secondary education in many universities. I have an undergraduate degree in International Relations, meaning I've taken a good number of political science, history and other social science courses. I don't think I can recall a single instance where subjectivity of any sort was present by any of my professors, except for English classes where many of my profs had obvious biases towards certain literary styles and authors. Sure, discussions would occur in classes and tutorials, but my professors never ventured into the realm of "that political/economic/religious/philosophical viewpoint is just wrong" or "this viewpoint is superior to that viewpoint".

	25-03-2005 08:08									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy But the student signs on to the course on the understanding that they will learn something, the professor is under no moral obligation to be neutral, the student on the other hand is under obligation to listen. A good professor will try to stay neutral and I'm sure the majority do (an inherently liberal thing to do of course) but he's not obliged to do so.

I don't think professors need to be neutral in college. Why do you think it's bad not to do so?

edit: added "not"

	25-03-2005 08:12									#86
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Oh dear god, what an idiotic piece of legislation! We have enough useless lawsuits already without having a student getting his feelings hurt because his prof disagrees with him grounds for a lawsuit. Besides having legal costs that push up the cost of tuition if you want to see what this bill will do to education just pick up a US high school history text book.

American high school history text books are some of the worst pieces of writing in the known universe. Its as if someone was purposefully trying to remove all the interesting bits of history and bore the poor kids to death. Textbook publishers have to please everyone that has a good lobby so nothing bad gets said about anyone and every minority or pack of loudmouths get their favorite person, event or idea represented so that the big picture is lost in a bunch of useless details. The bonanza of lawsuits that this bill would unleash (in the unlikely event that it passes and isn't struck down and unconstitutional) would have exactly the same effect, which is damn frightening.

	25-03-2005 08:20									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki This whole thing, including alot of the discussion on this thread, makes me really wonder about the quality of post-secondary education in many universities. I have an undergraduate degree in International Relations, meaning I've taken a good number of political science, history and other social science courses. I don't think I can recall a single instance where subjectivity of any sort was present by any of my professors, except for English classes where many of my profs had obvious biases towards certain literary styles and authors. Sure, discussions would occur in classes and tutorials, but my professors never ventured into the realm of "that political/economic/religious/philosophical viewpoint is just wrong" or "this viewpoint is superior to that viewpoint".

When I was studying IR (as an introduction, as my specialization is Political Systems), my prof was a fan of economy, and had his own pet theory on the matter. All the literature he provided was completely one sided (and it was utterly moronic half of the time) even though he didn't directly compare his economic opinions with others in class.

Similarly, my dissertation prof (on political behaviours) is much less opinionated, but he does draw all his usual literature from the same gang. At least in my experience, the bias was expressed by the interests and the favourite literatures of the profs, rather than by blatant propaganda in class.

	25-03-2005 08:21									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You have, and if you don't think that, wth have you made your postings ? Um... no I haven't. I've said religion is important to learn in the university. It explains many subjects much more in detail than without it. There has been a turn to try to 'get religion out' of the study of many subjects and that just leads to confusion over origins.

It may have been a long way, but I think we agree. I certainly want religion out of any study if it dictates how the study should be performed, but as a mean to understand f.es. history, then it is a natural part. In that case religion has a much broader view because paganism, northern mythology, hebrew mythology etc all are equal in the sense that they are participants in history.

When I stated that religion has only one place, and that is in the theological faculty, I was talking about the beliefs of people living and studiyng now. I guess that it is here we got wrong - I don't like that religious beliefs shall dicatate neither the current state or the future,

Edit : Bad quotes

	25-03-2005 08:22									#89
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quote: I don't think professors need to be neutral in college. Why do you think it's bad not to do so?

It's not bad... it's just a characteristic of excellent teachers as opposed to merely good ones... they are just the means by which the student teachers himself.

quote: I don't think I can recall a single instance where subjectivity

Trouble is that whereas a reasonable person would try to be neutral, tolerant and non-dogmatic, there are some conservatives who see *that* as being inherently liberal, and to an extent they may have a point. To a lot of people, if a teacher isn't dogmatically patriotic, militaristic, Christian etc, then that teacher now is automagically liberal spouting a leftist agenda of tolerance and acceptance .

Which of course begs the question of how such a student can find themself in a place of higher-learning

	25-03-2005 08:27									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy It's not bad... it's just a characteristic of excellent teachers as opposed to merely good ones... they are just the means by which the student teachers himself.

In my opinion and experience it's just the opposite. I don't think that any of my professors have been neutral. Even in business classes they express their opinions.